E30 vs E36 as a cheap track toy?

M030 wrote: I think what I want is a 318ti with an E36 M3 drivetrain swap for a cut-rate M Coupe ...

I know a guy in the Philly SCCA region who has one of those. He's a BMW wrench, so it's well done and has owned if for years (at least since I met him in '09). Not sure it's for sale, but he doesn't seem to drive it much (has a different DD). He only seems to auto-cross it if he's between cars and nothing else is available to co-drive. Other than the twin-outlet pipes, it pretty much looks stock.

M030 wrote: I can't find a decent E36 M3 (or even an E46) for sale. Most I've looked at were poorly modified, spray painted flat black or worse. I think what I want is a 318ti with an E36 M3 drivetrain swap for a cut-rate M Coupe that wasn't ever owned by the "Persian dance mafia" as my favorite mechanic calls the people who tastelessly modify M cars with dumb wings, aggressive ground effects, neon lights & rattle-can paint jobs.

The ti has a trailing arm suspension like an E30 or Z3. Swapping the S52/ZF into an E36 325 will be the same price for a better car. Unless you just like the snubby ass look and don't care about the handling limitations... there is no benefit. You might even have to pay more to get one because people do like the quirky things.

In reply to Giant Purple Snorklewacker:

The E30 rear suspension performs fine in my E30, I don't know why it would suck in a 318ti. I drove a Z3-based M-coupe and loved it. I'm hoping for that sort of driving experience without the shiny happy person tax that comes with buying a genuine M-coupe

I don't disagree with anything said here!

I was under the impression that the market prices between an M3 and a non-M e36 were only a couple thousand apart, and the S motor is worth the extra cash. A car that heavy is going to be more fun on the track at 240ish than 190ish.

M or non-M, you're going to have to do the bushings, no doubt about it.

As for not being Grassroots for suggesting OP might want to avoid the welding job . . . sorry. My bad. From where I sit, I got an awesome deal on a sweet non-M chassis, so I took it. But I'm still looking at spending a couple weekends doing that reinforcement job, when I would really rather be moving directly into the motor swap. So I guess that dissonance drove the comment.

In reply to M030:

The problems with the E30/Z3/ti trailing arms are with the geometry and how it moves around the roll center and toe under load. When you lower the car it makes the issue worse even if you have installed adjustment (ala IE, etc) because you reduce the effective range it can hold those values and you eff up the roll center. Then, you add 100HP and a bunch of torque and you get a handfull. THe typical fix for this is to make it a go-kart by stiffening it up to the point where it barely articulates. Now it's a terrible car for anything but smooth blacktop and it still won't hook up as well as any normal E36 with the same power. So you start with big splitters and wings to squash it into the track at speed. And it's still not good enough.

I have been down this road to the point of moving all the pick-up points, making copies of the DTM control arms, widening the track, raising the subframe, etc... and I was able to push the limits pretty far - but not far enough to be as good as a well assembled E36 M3 with a good suspension setup.

All of that said, I like to drive an E30 over the limit because it's a hoot. Like a TR6... it totally sucks at it's job but it's funny to toss around. So... if faster isn't necessarily what you are after then an E30 is just fine and it looks better than an E36 so... get a 2 door E30 and motor it up.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: All of that said, I like to drive an E30 over the limit because it's a hoot. Like a TR6... it totally sucks at it's job but it's funny to toss around. So... if faster isn't necessarily what you are after then an E30 is just fine and it looks better than an E36 so... get a 2 door E30 and motor it up.

Well, I guess it's all relative. I spent 10 years trying to make Fox Mustangs handle. The E30 is a dream in comparison.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: In reply to M030: The problems with the E30/Z3/ti trailing arms are with the geometry and how it moves around the roll center and toe under load. When you lower the car it makes the issue worse even if you have installed adjustment (ala IE, etc) because you reduce the effective range it can hold those values and you eff up the roll center. Then, you add 100HP and a bunch of torque and you get a handfull. THe typical fix for this is to make it a go-kart by stiffening it up to the point where it barely articulates. Now it's a terrible car for anything but smooth blacktop and it still won't hook up as well as any normal E36 with the same power. So you start with big splitters and wings to squash it into the track at speed. And it's still not good enough. I have been down this road to the point of moving all the pick-up points, making copies of the DTM control arms, widening the track, raising the subframe, etc... and I was able to push the limits pretty far - but not far enough to be as good as a well assembled E36 M3 with a good suspension setup. All of that said, I like to drive an E30 over the limit because it's a hoot. Like a TR6... it totally sucks at it's job but it's funny to toss around. So... if faster isn't necessarily what you are after then an E30 is just fine and it looks better than an E36 so... get a 2 door E30 and motor it up.

I love reading nerd out tech posts like this <3 This is GRM :)

I'm completely convinced. I'm going to make the E30 look & smell pretty, cash it in and buy a cheap E36 325i.

kevlarcorolla wrote:

mr2peak wrote: E30 is still a cooler car

Unless its a 4 door.

Yeah, 4 doors suck

mr2peak wrote: Yeah, 4 doors suck

I know, right!

Ok I didn't say 4 doors suck...but seriously they aren't as nice as a coupe period.

Every time I see a 4 door E30 on the street, they don't look as cool as a coupe, but after seeing these two up here, it must be the paint and wheels that do it.

In reply to Ian F:

I think I know who you are talking about. That 318ti is a beast hands down.

I took your advice today and bought a 1993 325i 2dr to beat on

Whooo hoooo!

Pics or it didnt happen..... :-)

M030 wrote: I took your advice today and bought a 1993 325i 2dr to beat on

Congratulations!

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Get the M3 now while they are cheap and plentiful.

I was about to body swap my 325i onto a $500 M3 chassis then I checked the insurance rates. That and in Michigan I would have to pay yearly tax on the original sticker price.

My rear subframe mounts has been fine with 4+ years of R-compounds. Rubber seems good in those bushings. The chassis doesn't take worn out bushing abuse well.

In the odd problems department: I managed to shear one of the bolts in the driver's seat. I've had some desire to replace the stock seats with something lighter for autocross use.

In reply to M030:

Pics or BANHAMMER!

In reply to mr2peak: Plus, who's the hottie in the purple shirt?

The wife of an R3v member haha