E36 M3: a track conundrum

To preface this, I am a buffoon (no, I didn't put a car into a wall... yet. I just don't know what I want. Some would say I'm E36 M3tty at making decisions like this).

Hey guys- a few weeks ago, I bought a 61k mile Estoril E36 M3. Awesome car, and really nice. Maybe too nice? Hear me out.
 

• I park my car on the mean streets of Queens. I worry about the car. The garage situation is unfavorable here- the garages staffed by attendants, the private lots narrow and also concerning.
• I crew for an AER team. Every time I go to the track, I realize how much I want to do track driving (with the ultimate goal of getting a racing license). I walk to work, so I don't need a real daily. I'd be ok with a track car that I could drive back. The dream, right? 
• With that comes the need for track instruction. I have AutoX experience, and I think the next step is receiving proper track driving experience. Something like the NASA ladder or a structured program like that.

So here's my dilemma. I have a mostly stock car likely worth (13-14k+). Do I trade that for an already built car intended for mostly track use? This would net me money on the front end and save me the cost of track-ifying my current E36. 

Yes, I am a bit of a doofus, and yes, there are worse problems to have. I like my current car a lot. But I do wonder if a different car would make a more suitable track companion.

I just want to do track driving 


 

An M3 built up for track use would cost every bit of $13-14k, if not more.  So you won't be getting money back on that transaction.

Since all you've really done are some auto-x, I'd stick with the car you have now.  Start doing more auto-x and hpde.  I promise that car, even in bone stock condition, can do far more than you can.  Once you feel that start to tip, then you can decide what you want to do.

In reply to docwyte :

Yeah, I think this is the right play. It went out for open lapping at NJMP and felt awesome. It's just so tempting when you see these track cars pop up with good maintenance, but I think you're right. Thanks.

Do you have any advice for the M3 for AutoX and eventual track driving. I have Super Sports (all the tire I need), Konis, and some pretty awesome brakes. I was thinking about doing the ground control coilover conversion soon with my existing Konis. Thoughts? 

I can say that I'm big of Ground Control setups and their customer service. 

I ran them on '88 332is (S52 swapped), '91 318is, and my '15 BRZ.

And I'm considering putting their stuff on my '13 135i. But I haven't decided if I'm going to leave the current car stock or actually modify it some. 

I'd still leave it on the stock setup for now. Your tire choice will impact the desired spring rates you'll want to use.

If what you're interested in is getting out on the track and improving your skills then make sure it's safe and will hold up to track work and get out there and run it.  As your skills improve you'll get a better idea of what you like and don't like in a track car and what series, if any you eventually want to race in.

In reply to z31maniac :

Awesome, glad to hear it. I'm probably gonna ride the Super Sport's out for a while. Thanks for the comment

In reply to APEowner :

Yeah, definitely. I'm just concerned about how much I need to actually track it reliably beyond the standard brake and tire fare. The previous owned actually tracked it a few times, but he took off most of the previous equipment. It does have great pads, stainless steel lines, and a few other track-related keys.

The car passed AER hpde tech and held up well on track. They're really awesome cars and offer a ton of feedback. The main goal for me with this car is to improve as a driver, and I think it'll be a great car for doing so. Thanks for the comment.

Ground Control makes nice stuff, but you don't need it.  I'd stick with what you have, don't spend any money on the car outside of maintenance.  Once you've progressed to the point where you want a track car for the increased safety, then make a decision.

You don't want to "build" a car and then discover its not legal in the class you want to be in.  Or spend money twice on suspension for instance...

I like the Super Sports, they're great all round tires and do well at the track.

In reply to docwyte :

I really only wanted to drop it slightly for looks and the performance at AutoX. I'm getting more and more comfortable after each one. I'm not super concerned about classing, but I don't want to dump a ton into aftermarket stuff either. The GC coilover conversion kit just seemed like a good option for AutoX and a slight drop up front given they can match the springs to the pre-existing Konis.

How was your M3's progression to track car status? 

Agee with most people here, the best thing to do is get some track time in and find your limits. Then you can find your cars limits and make small mods from there.

Start by spending money on the small important stuff, Good Fluids, Good helmet and safety gear, Good tires, and Good Brakes (Hint, Hint...)

Its not uncommon for people to boil the fluid in the stock calipers at the track so keep some extra fluid around to bleed if you get a spongy pedal, which could lead to a pretty scary freeway trip home.
 

I had a really nice e36 m3 for a while. It was too nice for me. I didn’t enjoy beating on it mostly because it was so nice. I sold it for that reason. 

My advice would be to sell your current car and find one a bit rattier (aesthetically, not mechanically). Use the profit for maintenance, upgrades, and track time.  Then go rip it around without the worry of hurting your pristine car.  My .02

I’ve been there: living in Manhattan and working in Queens (Jamaica Hospital). Not much fun for a car guy. 

My advice would be keep the M3. A clean, low-mileage, Estoril model won’t be easy to replace. Don’t modify it at all: just keep it well maintained and put some good street tires and brake pads on it.

Join the BMW CCA, preferably both the NY and NJ chapters. Sign up for a high-performance driving school at NJMP Lightning, which is a great “first track.” Then add NJMP Thunderbolt, Lime Rock, and Watkins Glen (pretty much in that order).

You'll love it!

In reply to LanEvo :

Funny that you mention that- I AutoX with NYR SCCA and Metro NY PCA, and am a member of BMWCCA. I did about 10 laps of NJMP thunderbolt and was hooked. But that's the conundrum I'm caught in- I think the car is worth a decent amount, and I worry that a more track-focused (slightly rattier) car is more my speed. But I don't want to rush into anything either. Thanks for the comments. 

In reply to Lof8 :

Exactly- my car isn't a show car by any means, but it is a well-kept car in a rare color. This is where I'm torn about buying a cheaper car, as the money would give me extra track time and instruction. Thanks for the comment.

I think my plan will be to keep it with minimal modifications for now, per the collective wisdom of the group

Good move. I went to a GC setup on my car eventually after autoxing it for a year or two stockish. Learned a lot, and the car was probably faster than me still when I eventually upgraded suspension. I feel like these cars work better on the track than on autox due to the slower steering ratio and understeer characteristics not being ideal for tighter turning. 

When you're ready skip the GC camber plates though, they make a horrible popping sound. Vorshlag makes better ones. 

In reply to Wizard_Of_Maz :

I've had three, including my current one.  2 E36's and 1 E46.  Bought my first E36 mostly stock.  Then put koni's with stock springs.  Then went to a TC Kline coilover kit, bigger swaybars, supersprint exhaust.  Then added an Active Autowerke supercharger, because POWAH!  Fun car, wasn't classed particularly well, suspension was decent since it was mostly still a street car.

My E46 M3, I immediately did TC Kline double adjustables with camber plates, then scored a deal on a 4 wheel Stoptech BBK.  Ran it like that for a long time, car was very well balanced and still comfortable enough for the street.  Then I did something stupid and put on a VF Engineering supercharger kit, because POWAH!  Car was insanely fast.  Much too fast for the track without doing proper safety equipment, which I didn't want to do since the car was me DD.  Sold the car to get a DD AND a track car.

My current E36 M3 I bought as a track/street car.  (NOT a street/track car, there's a big difference!) Car already had all the chassis weld in stuff, welded oil pump nut, welded oil pan baffles, dual fuel pumps, TCK rollbar.  I installed my recaro fixed back seats and harnesses.  Car had the Ground Control SA Koni kit on it, which does pretty well.  I've just installed a set of MCS DA's, first time on track with them is this Saturday, I'm looking forward to seeing the difference.  The car, while still licensed for the street and having a radio/AC/Cruise is really much more of a track car than a street car.  I can and do drive it on the street, but it's not that comfortable...

Quick update on this thread - sold my Estoril car, and while I miss it, it really was too nice for the city.

Once again, prompted by stupidity (and the fact that I'm surrounded by car guys at work), I am on the hunt for E36 M3s on the cheaper side of things (sub 10k). I just want your guys' wisdom once more. I want to pursue track driving more and more. I love autoX, but I really want to get on track too and improve my skills from there. The more instruction, the better.

Basically, I've found one E36 M3 on the more track side of things. No cage, retains AC, but heavy suspension work, brakes, all the other good stuff. But that's my question - if I'm really just starting with track days, should I buy a more stock car and work my way up from there? It might cost more doing the modifications myself, but that way I control them and move once I'm comfortable. 

This one car I've been looking at would no doubt be a good track day car, but I wonder if it is too much for me right away. I love the way these cars drive and am getting more comfortable navigating their mechanical nuances, so I think a more stock variant would be better starting off, right? 

Thanks again everyone for your help! 

I have to admit, I'm kind of glad you sold the clean M3.  The thought of it getting beat up parking on the street was making me cringe.  City street parking can be horrid for a car. 

The E36 chassis is very friendly.  Even with suspension work, you should be able to acclimate to the car fairly easily.  Just take it easy,  drive within yourself, and get a few instructors to ride along to give you tips.  These cars are very common within the track-day crowd, so you'll have plenty of advice on how to set it up for your tastes. 

No such thing as too much E36 M3. Well maybe an Allison aircraft engine swap but I digress. Get as much car as you can afford and start trackin' it. The best you know is the best you've driven so starting at a high point will make the learning curve that much easier. Going out with a car that eventually needs work is just going to cost more money down the road. Built cars almost always cost way less than building it yourself.

Joe Gearin said:

I have to admit, I'm kind of glad you sold the clean M3.  The thought of it getting beat up parking on the street was making me cringe.  City street parking can be horrid for a car. 

 

The E36 chassis is very friendly.  Even with suspension work, you should be able to acclimate to the car fairly easily.  Just take it easy,  drive within yourself, and get a few instructors to ride along to give you tips.  These cars are very common within the track-day crowd, so you'll have plenty of advice on how to set it up for your tastes. 

This.

I don't buy in to the "you have to start out with a bone stock Miata on snow tires or else you'll never learn" philosophy that some people stand by. 

My first track experience was on an R6!

I'd buy one as built up as you can, you'll save tons of money.  A properly built track E36 M3 will have the oil pump nut secured, oil pan baffles, various suspension points reinforced, bushings replaced and suspension done.

The stock brakes are fine for track use although Stoptechs are great.  Find one that's been maintained....

Joe, Z31, and Doc - thanks for the responses. The car sits at around 165k, owned by the same guy since 1996. Suspension reinforced, dual pumps, pump nut secured, all the good E36 track stuff (replaced the motor, new one has about 100k). From what he says, though, the tail end of its ownership was spent as a track car rather than a DD. He's only done 5k since 2010 (when the cooling system was last replaced) so I'm unsure if that should be a concern too. At this point, the aging of the parts is my main concern.

The only other thing is that I'm wondering if the suspension will be too miserable on the street. TC Kline Coilovers, poly all around, I can live with driving it out of the city to events I suppose. 

Long story short, it's a well-maintained, higher mileage, effectively single owner car. I've been going back and forth with the seller and he's legit, and pretty much exactly the person I'd want to buy a 20 year old German performance car from. At this point, the concerns are more on my end. 

As long as the leakdown/comp numbers are good, the engines are stout. 

On these maintenance is really more important than mileage. 

Thank you Rdcyclist too - didn't see your reply the first time. Owner tested compression 1 year ago and found 191-196, which seems pretty solid. Also it's got the M50 Manifold, TMS Stage 2, a whole bunch of goodies. Clutch done within the past 2 years too, which is nice. He seems really set on reaching a fair deal for both of us, and his responses are confidence inspiring.

How soon would you all recommend replacing cooling? It's been 8 years but only 5k miles- should it be that much of an immediate concern for me? Thanks.