Power steering track prep instructions by BMW Car Club of America:
Power steering track prep instructions by BMW Car Club of America:
ddavidv said:I can tell you for a fact it WON'T buff out.
So far I've found two doors, a grille panel and a hood in the same color. Got a fender in the wrong color because I got tired of waiting for a silver one. Still need a bumper cover and some plastic bits. 'Fixed' the roof with a dead blow hammer, floor jack and 2x4 because GRASSROOTS, BABY.
Broke every single engine and trans mount.
When we advise people to 'be prepared to walk away from anything you take to the track' it means YOU. This can happen to the best of us, or in my case the 'competently mediocre' among us.
Right on, man!
ddavidv said:I can tell you for a fact it WON'T buff out.
So far I've found two doors, a grille panel and a hood in the same color. Got a fender in the wrong color because I got tired of waiting for a silver one. Still need a bumper cover and some plastic bits. 'Fixed' the roof with a dead blow hammer, floor jack and 2x4 because GRASSROOTS, BABY.
When we advise people to 'be prepared to walk away from anything you take to the track' it means YOU. This can happen to the best of us, or in my case the 'competently mediocre' among us.
How twisted is the chassis? Or is it just dents?
OK late to the party but I wanted to chime in.
While I'm normally in the stock Miata on snow tires camp, Wizard has karting experience so that definelty counts as starting in something underpowered.
Additionally I wouldn't consider a E36 M3 a power car, they are not slow but it's also not a 500-600hp car.
The only thing I would suggest for the M3 is leave the motor stock for the time being. It will be easier on tires and for a dual purpose car docile is good.
Now as for not learning throttle control in an underpowered car, that's simple not the case. If a driver truly has the car on the limit, planting the pedal will unload the front end and the car will scrub that precious 50-100 rpm. In my 100whp wonder rolling on the thottle to quickly to soon will kill rpm. You won't even realize it until you get to the end of the following straight and notice the car is down 100-200 rpm. My Showroom Stock C Miata was the same way.
Wheel spin is obvious, where tipping into the throttle too soon isn't. From my instructor experience most people are aware of wheel spin even if they don't mange it well but the bigger problem always seems to be people unloading the front end on exit. Also note that I'm talking about cars in the 300-400 range. Finally wheel spin is not so obvious in a 700hp Viper but this is mainly because things happen much faster than most new to intermediate drivers can process..........which brings us back to why so many of us recommend lower powered cars.
Back to the M3, I think that it is a very good car for someone with a bit of experience, they have enough power that you don't end up with corners that are easily flat but still a momentum car that teaches you out to get every last bit out of the car.
EDIT: yes to do not take something to the track you cannot afford to damage and if you are driving to and from the event don't hang the car out.
MINIzguy said:How twisted is the chassis? Or is it just dents?
Blissfully just dents aplenty. It went on its roof in a slow roll. Most of the damage was caused by rolling onto the displaced tire wall and the right door got FUBAR'd by the mirror breaking off and going under. Needs a little pull on the upper fender rail and something in the steering is bent, probably an inner tie rod.
Tom1200 said he doesn't rate the E36 M3 as a power car. I guess it depends on what you are used to. I suspect a lot of GRMers are like myself and haven't much experienced cars with over 200hp (though that is probably getting rarer each passing year). I thought my E30 was pretty quick based upon my history of 70s and 80s playthings. After I sold the E30 race car I wanted something 'faster' that wasn't way expensive for reasons illustrated in my photo. Aside from a Mustang or (barf) Camaro/C4 Corvette there wasn't much to choose from. The M3 is fast, just not Mitsu Evo or C6 Corvette fast. And apparently a little too fast for a geezer who didn't hydrate enough, acclimate properly to a new car nor respect the somewhat dubious rear alignment of the previous owner.
I like the feeling of rapid propulsion as much as the next guy but this car has enough front straight velocity for my sense of self-preservation. I really have no desire to go 160+ mph anywhere. Ever. What the M3 does give is a (normally) light, well-balanced car that is fast enough to keep up with much of the HPDE crowd (a lot of other M3s) instead of demanding constant point-bys like I'd have with a Miata or E30. Whole other topic in that.
ddavid you hit the nail on the head; compared to the 100 wheel horsepower things I race an M3 is most definetly a high horsepower car, but in todays HPDE world it's not modded STI, Evo or Z06, ZL1, GT3 powerful.
All of my time in more powerful cars is either in single seaters with very good power to weight ratios (our old DSR 1000lbs 180hp current F500 750lbs 100hp) or Viper & GT3RS type cars that aren't mine (By the way a GT3RS is phenomenal) I once drove one of those 540hp Cadillac wagons and from 60 to 100 mph it was reeeeally impressive but man did it weigh 9 tons.
I think the E36 M3 is a good mix, circa 300hp in 3200lb car, enough power to feel fast but still low enough that if you overdrive it it becomes immediately apparent.
AnthonyGS said:z31maniac said:Joe Gearin said:I have to admit, I'm kind of glad you sold the clean M3. The thought of it getting beat up parking on the street was making me cringe. City street parking can be horrid for a car.
The E36 chassis is very friendly. Even with suspension work, you should be able to acclimate to the car fairly easily. Just take it easy, drive within yourself, and get a few instructors to ride along to give you tips. These cars are very common within the track-day crowd, so you'll have plenty of advice on how to set it up for your tastes.
This.
I don't buy in to the "you have to start out with a bone stock Miata on snow tires or else you'll never learn" philosophy that some people stand by. R
My first track experience was vngon an R6!
I agree. The Miata teaches momentum driving and trail braking because it’s a great chassis and woefully underpowered. You can’t learn to feather the throttle, roll into the throttle slowly and ease off slowly like you do in a high hp car. In a Miata you pretty much push the accelerator to the firewall and wait. It’s hard to induce throttle on oversteer in Miata with lots of tire. It’s a whole lot easier with a high hp car.
I disagree, limits on high power cars on sticky tires are so sky high, you're just learning the line that feels safe-ish and feel like you're going fast. You can't touch the limit on the car OR the tire, so how are you improving? I've started adding in professional coaching to help me improve faster, and it's amazing how a professional driver can pick apart the way a "fast" hpde driver is going through the course - it's not always intuitive (or we'd all be fast, just not "feel" fast, eh?).
Also, track insurance is a thing - get it. Then ANYONE can afford to walk away from a bender (in my experience, it's not even that expensive for a 15k policy). I'm amazed at the cars people take on track, ball up, and then state they didn't get track insurance. I prefer to track my 2k all in Escort for this reason alone, but when I track ANYTHING else, it's got track insurance on it.
People always as me why not a high powered car and I tell them the biggest issue ismthe speed at which you arrive. If you're in a car that's going 100mph and you arrive at a 80 mph corners it's fairly easy to judge your turn in point and entry speed. Contrast that with arriving at the same corner going 120, not as easy to judge. I can't remember the number of drivers I've talked to who say they lost it on the exit of a particular corner when in reality the got in trouble on corner entry. They just didn't realize their crash/off started about 200ft before they realized it. A fast car can turn small mistakes into big ones.
Back to Wizards original reason for posting; as I've already said he has Karting experience as well as some autocrossing and track days so he will do fine and have loads of fun. I wouldn't sentence him to a underpowered wonder like my vintage race car.
My 'off' had that speed differential as a factor I'm sure. I approached T10 at Summit at a certainly higher velocity under the bridge than my E30 ever dreamed of. I failed to work my way up to those speeds and instead just bathed in the glory of a car that would actually generate feelings of forward thrust. I essentially ran out of track while correcting a minor jiggle under braking and...weeeeee...sideways into the tire wall at probably 30-40 mph.
HPDE instructors have been discussing the substantial rise in the level of performance of track day cars. People can buy some scary fast stuff now with no prior experience and we instructors climb into the right seat, often with only factory safety equipment. Many are choosing to bow out. Though they can be fun to ride in I vastly prefer to instruct in cars no faster than my M3. I had my first C7 Corvette guy that same weekend and was truly relieved he was somewhat experienced with a large amount of self-preservation. I have way more fun helping Miata guys find their way around the track.
The sad fact is most DE students aren't driving cars as fast as an E36 M3, they're driving cars exponentially faster. Remember an E36 M3 has 240hp whereas a modern camry has almost 300hp.
Most "sporty" cars now boast 400hp or more. That doesn't include a real sports car like a corvette or the like.
I instructed in a C6 Z06 quite a few years ago at PPIR, which is a Roval with a tight infield. The student was cautious and older, short shifting at 4500 rpm and lifting several seconds before the braking point coming off the Oval. Even with that it felt like we were hauling the mail big time. I asked him what speeds we were hitting, 145mph! So if he'd been going up to redline, where all the power is and staying in it until the braking point, we easily could've been going 165mph+. A C7 Z06 is faster, as are quite a few other cars now. In fact, many more "regular" sports sedans are as fast as a C6 Z06.
All of these cars are street cars with only factory safety equipment. I've been instructing for 15 years now and with very few exceptions have always had students that I didn't feel in jeopardy with. However, you can't beat physics and the cars are SO much faster now that a minor mistake can result in a major incident. I'm getting more and more uncomfortable being in the passenger seat...
In reply to docwyte :
I read in article in R&T recently that cut at this. Speed really is so much more accessible now, and there seems to be a lot of discrepancy between potential for speed and the training to get to that point. I would be afraid to sit right seat, too.
I really do think the E36 M3 is the right balance for me.
Thanks for all the info and help, everyone. I've enjoyed seeing this turn into a discussion about tracking for beginners in general, and I hope it can help other people in a similar situation
Ugh, found a stock E36 M3/4/5 that I could probably scoop up for $6k. That would give me money too for an iRacing setup, and I could start with brakes and tires. I am way too indecisive...
I promise I'm better at making decisions on track :)
docwyte said:The sad fact is most DE students aren't driving cars as fast as an E36 M3, they're driving cars exponentially faster. Remember an E36 M3 has 240hp whereas a modern camry has almost 300hp.
Most "sporty" cars now boast 400hp or more. That doesn't include a real sports car like a corvette or the like.
I instructed in a C6 Z06 quite a few years ago at PPIR, which is a Roval with a tight infield. The student was cautious and older, short shifting at 4500 rpm and lifting several seconds before the braking point coming off the Oval. Even with that it felt like we were hauling the mail big time. I asked him what speeds we were hitting, 145mph! So if he'd been going up to redline, where all the power is and staying in it until the braking point, we easily could've been going 165mph+. A C7 Z06 is faster, as are quite a few other cars now. In fact, many more "regular" sports sedans are as fast as a C6 Z06.
All of these cars are street cars with only factory safety equipment. I've been instructing for 15 years now and with very few exceptions have always had students that I didn't feel in jeopardy with. However, you can't beat physics and the cars are SO much faster now that a minor mistake can result in a major incident. I'm getting more and more uncomfortable being in the passenger seat...
Serious question:
As an instructor, is the need to placate the student so they will come back again outweight telling them "you are running the course in 3rd, regardless" for safety? I know at Hallett which is pretty tight so the cars don't get as fast as Road Atlanta/Road America/numerous other tracks.......instructors will tell new guys in those hyper fast cars to do the course in 3rd or not allow them above a certain speed, etc.
Not that it fixes everything, but I would think it helps?
While that makes a lot of logic, most organizations aren't willing to do that. At least the ones that charge, like NASA and the like. Maybe BMW club or PCA could pull that off but the attraction of track days is being able to put the hammer down. You really can't do that on the street, the cars are just too fast and there's not enough room, space in traffic etc to have fun with them outside of a track.
If you tell someone that they can't let their eleventy billion horsepower car loose on the track, chances are they're not going to sign up with your organization. Believe me, these groups want to make money, obviously they want to have a safe event but they're not going to pro-actively quash the speed element...
Wizard no indecisiveness really; your going to buy soemthing you'll be using for several years. I'd look at every option possible as well.
I've instructed at SCCA, NASA & PCA days and I've found them to be very serious about safety. There was a group in my area that was a free for all atmosphere and I passed on instructing with them several times.
I instruct mostly at PCA days; the first at speed session is usually one where the instructors drive the first two laps. I find that most students after watching an instructor go around quickly realize they have a lot to learn. If someone shows up with a 600hp wonder I usually talk them into learning the turn in points lines etc for the first session. I liked to have a good long intro talk. I reinforce that what I show them can be used every day to get more enjoyment out of their car. I find most guys or gals respond well to this is a really pretty car And it would be a shame to dent it.
I once had to show a driver in the novice group exactly why he was going to crash by putting him in my race car and replicating what would happen if he continued on the path he was headed down. Instant fix.
For the most part students and novices seem to be OK it's the intermediate group that's the most dicey; drivers who have the capability to get into real trouble but don't have the experience or talent to get themselves out of it. I run my gutless wonder in the intermediate group. In fact most of the instructors at my local track days are in that group in either a Spec Miata, 944 or Boxter. We see lots of wonky thing going on.
There is a balance between letting someone exercise their car and keeping them safe. I've seen everyone of the groups I've mentioned actually park people. If people know this it makes the event a lot more fun and a lot safer.
Naturally I run at a medium speed track; I won't instruct at faster tracks with reduced or minimal runoff room. I also don't like doing check out rides for anything higher than the novice group. If a fast group driver needs pointers because the are new to the track I prefer to put them in my car.
So after one of my usual rambling well of topic replies I'll make an attempt to bring this back on to Wizard's original topic; a medium horsepower car such as an M3 driven sensibly (98%) is a fantastic car for a dual purpose role of driving to events as well as occasional daily use.
I'll be honest - I thought that generation of M-car had more HP - I'm a bit BMW ignorant so apologies for that (and the derailment). I've heard nothing but good things about them on track (reliability wise and feel) and while I stand by my statement - it's more aimed at the newest gen of 400+ hp monsters that are coming with 315 section Pilot SS tires, etc. I still maintain **most** people will learn faster on the worst car you can find that still has decent dynamics (and that's a miata/gti/whatever on OK tires). As with all things in life, blanket statements don't hold true - so grain of salt and all that.
Tom1200 said:For the most part students and novices seem to be OK it's the intermediate group that's the most dicey; drivers who have the capability to get into real trouble but don't have the experience or talent to get themselves out of it. I run my gutless wonder in the intermediate group. In fact most of the instructors at my local track days are in that group in either a Spec Miata, 944 or Boxter. We see lots of wonky thing going on.
Question on this point as I'm trying to climb the ladder. How exactly does one get experience outside of oh E36 M3 moments on track? Or is there just seat time and experience with those moments?
Edit: Forgot the autoedit feature for certain words. No pun intended... :)
Seat time, coupled with retaining instructors in the right seat as long as possible. There is a bit of a macho belief that getting solo'd is the ultimate goal for a lot of people. Being solo'd doesn't mean you have achieved driving greatness, it only means the instructors have decided you are no longer a serious danger to the rest of the track users.
I'm an instructor but am far from a driving genius and still welcome passengers who can give me a tip here or there. Problem is I'm now at a level where the casual volunteer instructor like myself can't add much and I need to hire professionals, which is financially daunting. If I were a racer paying Peter Krause for a weekend would be money well spent. For a hobbyist who may dabble in time trials it becomes a big hurdle.
My drive also isn't strong enough to reach the elite level of driving which is why I no longer race. The cost/benefit ratio for a mid-pack guy who rarely had good dices simply wasn't worth it and I knew I'd never have the bravery and lack of self-preservation to run in the top five. I just like driving fast and jousting with someone of similar caliber. I can still do that in the instructor group with far less risk of banging metal. But it also means I've reached a bit of a plateau with my driving.
ddavidv said:Seat time, coupled with retaining instructors in the right seat as long as possible.
**Effective** seat time - go out with a plan. Think critically about driving the line (and WHY it's the line - it's not the line because you drive it that way, it's the line because of physics). Can you walk or bike the track? You can learn a lot about why your car does what it does by **really** looking at the surface. Record data - you can do it via smart phone, etc. Listen to everyone but apply sparingly. I've been working with a professional coach because of a fortuitous arrangement, but I've found out even drivers you think are fast are doing a lot wrong. I had an instructor talk about a line through the esses @ RA that my coach had just a weekend or so back had said "everyone will say X is the right line, but don't listen - trust me" So, be friendly, but take everything with a grain of salt. (so also take my advice with a grain o' salt) Worth noting, I'm probably a much worse, slower driver than most on here, these are just the take-aways from trying to sponge from my coach.
DdavidV and accordionfolder - Thanks for your responses. Totally understand and agree. I guess my question was more in the vein of how to get out of situations outside of just experiencing it multiple times. Last time I was on track I had a nice spin where I basically forgot even what happened once I got back to the pit, and it was only when I popped the video in that I realized that as I went into a corner too hot that I corrected, then counter-steered but didn't steer back to neutral fast enough, and then finally countered the countersteer that got me to a 270 degree spin. Thankfully I somehow mostly kept it on track so there was no issue with the car, but it was just so quick that I don't know that even if I were to land in the same spot again that I'd be quick enough to save it (or to know in a split second that I was better going off straight). So that's the nature of the question - without the "oh crap" moments how do you learn that particular skill?
“How exactly does one get experience outside of oh E36 M3 moments on track? Or is there just seat time and experience with those moments?”
This is the million dollar question; the easy answer is indeed seat time but that costs money.
Believe it or not you can learn/practice on your daily drive. A friend once noticed I went round a particular interchange without a bunch of steering corrections despite the fact that the radius isn’t constant. It’s pretty much second nature that I throttle steer around these corners, more gas when the radius opens up and lift a little when it tightens up. If the corner really tightens up you can lightly trail the brakes. This is all done at normal speeds. Why it’s effective is you get to practice finesse.
+1 on arriving at the track with a plan. I’d start with making sure to hit your marks in every corner even if you have to start going slower to do so. I mentioned seeing wonky things in various sessions, if you go storming into a corner and miss the apex by a foot why on earth would you try it faster on the next lap? If you can’t visualize all of the turn in, apex and exit points then print out an aerial map and mark little Xs for these points. Even if the lines aren’t the absolute best it’s still OK because once you can nail you marks lap after lap you’re not expending extra brain power processing lines and what the car is doing at the same time. Now that you’re consistent you can adjust the lines.
Adjust your lines with the pedals. Learn to steer with the pedals, that means mastering trail braking and throttle steering. It seems obvious but if you’re on the gas in a big double apex corner and you simply try to wind on more steering the car is going to understeer, it may only do so for a few feet but you’ve just scrubbed .05 of a second, multiply this times 18 corners and you’ve lost a second. Even though many people consider it an advanced technique I teach people trail braking straight away. It’s no use learning the old fashioned do all your braking in a straight line and unlearn it to relearn trail braking. It’s not a difficult concept; you start by going from 100% brake to 90% brake & 10% steering and then taper off until you have 99% steering/cornering and 1% braking. This allows you to rotate the car and get maximum traction from all 4 tires at the same time. The pedal pressure we’re talking about is no more than resting your foot on the brake pedal. I’ve always been adamant that the single most important thing you can learn in trying to drive a car fast is learning to come off the brake pedal smoothly. Once you unload the front end because you’ve bounced it up and down with the brake pedal, understeer sets in and the corner is over. Same goes for the throttle, other than the aforementioned throttle steering you want to roll into the throttle progressively as you unwind the wheel. Throttle control is especially important in a underpowered car, as you’ll never get wheel spin over 45mph, being too aggressive with the throttle leads to speed sapping understeer. We are only talking about a couple hundred rpm but again that .05 on every corner adds up.
So once you have consistent lines and every lap is within a few tenths you can now adjust the car. I always tell people to do this last (provided the set-up is completely out) because I’ve hoped in a lot of cars that had some funky set-up whereby the owner was trying to make up for their less than optimal technique. Start with a nice neutral set up and adjust from there. My Datsun is actually set up with a bit of oversteer because it has a mind blowing 99 wheel horsepower and I need it to keep rotating when the throttle is pinned to the floor, it is faster set up this way. I certainly wouldn’t set up a higher horsepower car this way.
The main reason I instruct is I hate to see people struggle but it has a secondary benefit of me doing something and then instantly remembering “hey I tell students not to do that”. It forces me to analyze what I’m doing. I’m a better than average driver, I’ve even managed a lap record or two but I know there’s always room to improve. Even the top F1 drivers pour over their data.
In reply to Tom1200 :
Super good reply - a few more things (for this very derailed thread, sorry!). Use the parade laps/warmup session and put the car ON the curbs/apexes. Try to build the visual model, because it's no good if you just think you're hitting your marks. Make sure to learn the corners that are dangerous and the corners that encourage experimentation - anyone can usually tell you those. @Road Atlanta you make sure your ducks are in a row before getting on the front straight, etc. BUT to triple down on what Tom said, be consistent first and foremost - drive within your limits, even if you "feel slow."
For me it has just been: stay hydrated, practice, and get in-car instructed fairly often. I also don't debate with instructors whether the approach they're teaching me that day is the best or the fastest. I just learn how to do it their way, so I have a different experience in my head.
Even though I instruct I still like hear different points of view; a couple of years ago I was dicing with a 510, the car had a welded diff and as we got to the chicane the driver just chucked it totally sideways, then let it snap back. Normally if you told me that was a way to pick up some time I'd be very skeptical but after watching the guy do it, I tried it and found a couple of tenths.......you never know what you can learn.
I also meant to mention some basic visual exercises; take one finger hold it up next to the side of your head and wiggle it, at the same time extend your other arm directly in front of you and wiggle it, while doing that look across the room at something (TV works well). Be doing this you can view three points at once, these points are turn in point, apex and exit.
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