E36 M3. No, Really.

Based on the ad and pics, what do you guys think of this car?

http://cleveland.craigslist.org/cto/3752777339.html

It's the E36 M3?

If the cooling system service has been done, might not be a bad price. If not, I' try to get him down a bit. We recently saw a '95 in similar condition and a few more miles for $6500 in Philly.

I think the price could be justified for the right car (well-maintained creampuff)

I don't think the ad and the pics quite achieve that, but if I was in the market I would certainly consider further investigation.

Pix are too small. I believe that you should look at it in person and drive it. The potential issues with the car may be the cooling system and the suspension. If the rear dampers are the original Sachs, ie ratty looking or leaking, then you can expect a bill for refreshing the bushings and suspension at both ends of the car. This would require the seller to drop the price by the potential repair cost. Imo, the '99 are the most desirable as they were the last halo car of the E36 line and quality was spot on by that year. Mine is as tight as a drum with slightly higher mileage, and the interior still looks 90%.

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Thanks for the information, guys. Can someone be more specific about cooling system and suspension problems? How difficult are these cars to work on and how is the pricing of parts?

Interior/exterior parts are expensive (a new door seal is something like $250 dollars for a coupe, for example). Mechanical parts are very reasonable, especially if you shop on the Bimmerforums Vendor forums.

I'd say it warrants a second look, but unless he's done some suspension/cooling work in the last few years, the price seems a little high. Poke around on Bimmerforums to see what similar cars are going for. The '99 has the 3 spoke wheel, and generally commands a premium over the earlier years.

As others have said, the ad and pics are lacking, but that doesn't mean that the car is Worth a closer look, and if you're unfamiliar with BMWs, I'd definitely arrange a PPI with a good local shop if you're serious about the car.

Here are my notes about the cooling system refresh I did on my car: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/e36-cooling-system-overhaul-notes/13016/page1/

In terms of working on them, they're very easy to work on and the internet has a wealth of information for all the common jobs you'll need to do. Cooling system refresh should include at a minimum:

• New hoses
• New drive and accessory belts
• New radiator
• New waterpump with metal impellers
• New aluminum thermostat housing (not plastic)
• New t-stat

Also check the condition of the overflow tank, it probably makes sense to get that done when you're in there. The cooling system refresh (minus the overflow tank) cost me about $350 in parts and a day in effort (I took my time and then some).

Weird... the search function was working for awhile but now it's bloody useless...

There have been numerous threads about this recently, but in a nutshell, the E36 cooling system (normal stuff plus water pump and radiator) is considered sort of a wear item. It's not difficult to do and cost about $700 or so in parts (edit: I think I recall specing an aluminum radiator).

Figure on about a grand for suspension bits. Difficulty will vary depending on available tools and experience.

Cooling system overhaul is +/- $400 in parts and a Saturday afternoon. You need a 32mm open end wrench and something to hold the fan clutch from spinning (home made tool in my case).

Front control arms are similar cost and difficulty. Shocks are as much as you want to spend. Rear trailing arm bushings can be done in the driveway with much swearing and grunting.

The documentation, support and online resources for these cars are as good as anything on the road. I think they are very logical and easy to work on.

Is there a clear advantage to doing the front struts and control arm bushings at the same time? My bushings are on the way out but not critical, and I'll be replacing the struts on my E36 next week.

In reply to nderwater:

Since it's usually a good idea to have the car aligned after replacing the struts, it would make sense to do the bushings as well if they look marginal.

Thanks. It turns out that I can get them for less than I expected, so I've gone ahead and ordered a set.

dj06482 wrote: - New hoses - New drive and accessory belts - New radiator - New waterpump with metal impellers - New aluminum thermostat housing (not plastic) - New t-stat

Pretty sure this car would have had the metal impeller water pump and aluminum thermostat housing from the factory, as this was a running change.

MadScientistMatt wrote: Pretty sure this car would have had the metal impeller water pump and aluminum thermostat housing from the factory, as this was a running change.

In general I've read that the later cars have the metal impeller (and my '97 did), but according to Bimmerforums (for what that's worth ) they should still be considered a wear item. You never know if a previous owner replaced the original with the plastic version (unless you have every record like for this car), so I'd just install a metal one to be safe. For the $75, it's worth it in piece of mind, especially if you're already in there.

My theory is the same for the aluminum t-stat housing, they're something like $10, so I'd be happier to just install a new one. Is it absolutely necessary, no, but I think it's good insurance.

dj06482 wrote: My theory is the same for the aluminum t-stat housing, they're something like $10, so I'd be happier to just install a new one. Is it absolutely necessary, no, but I think it's good insurance.

Installing a new one also prevents it from looking like crap in 3-4yrs......

BMW changed to metal impeller in 97 or so but the new ones today from the dealer are plastic. You can get metal impellers from aftermarket (many choices ~$50) with the Stewart Warner (@ $150) being the best choice for anything track worthy.

Be careful and inspect those Ronal metal t-stat housings - I had one that had pitting inside that leaked thru a pinhole. They are only better than the factory plastic in the case where they don't age out after 80k miles. I only use them because I drill and tap for a temp sender when running a 97+ head (to avoid having to make a 12x1.5 to 1/8 NPT adapter on the lathe). It is easier to TIG a boss of thick aluminum and drill/tap on the bench.

If I were shopping for a BMW on the performance end of the scale, I would be more inclined to buy from a BMWCCA member and pay a price that was closer to the top of the market. This runs contrary to how I operate in every other aspect of my life.

Couple of good, informative threads on BF.c:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?379325-Everything-you-need-to-know-before-buying-an-E36-M3-Courtesy-of-Edge-Motorworks

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1406255-E36-M3-FAQ-and-DIY-Resource-Thread-Check-here-first!-

When I did the cooling system on my 98, I used this kit with a couple of upgrades: http://www.bimmerzone.com/BMW_Parts_Cooling_Package/PKG-E36-COOLING.html

The best way to solve this when replacing the radiator is:

http://www.mishimoto.com/bmw-e36-aluminum-performance-radiator-92-99.html

Use the radiator, aluminum overflow, silicone hoses and fan shroud. Never worry about it again.

I've seen the radiator for $255 and the rest comes to something like another $150. So... not much more than all the stock plastic E36 M3 that will fail again.

7pilot wrote: If the rear dampers are the original Sachs, ie ratty looking or leaking, then you can expect a bill for refreshing the bushings and suspension at both ends of the car. This would require the seller to drop the price by the potential repair cost.

Why? If they were perfect, the car would be going for more money.

If a car's price is going to be judged from that aspect, then you need to start from how much a mechanicall and cosmetically perfect car is going for. Then cut repair costs down by 50-80% because there is no ROI for it.

As far as the car is concerned, M3 + Westlake = at least three bent wheels.

Woody wrote: If I were shopping for a BMW on the performance end of the scale, I would be more inclined to buy from a BMWCCA member and pay a price that was closer to the top of the market. This runs contrary to how I operate in every other aspect of my life.

Yeah, well... I tried that with my E30... and look where that got me...

Right now I'd rather buy at the lowest end of the price scale, assume it will need work and not be surprised if it turns out to be a steaming pile of turds.

Ian F wrote:

Woody wrote: If I were shopping for a BMW on the performance end of the scale, I would be more inclined to buy from a BMWCCA member and pay a price that was closer to the top of the market. This runs contrary to how I operate in every other aspect of my life.

Yeah, well... I tried that with my E30... and look where that got me... Right now I'd rather buy at the lowest end of the price scale, assume it will need work and not be surprised if it turns out to be a steaming pile of turds.

This is why I said that sometimes 110k miles is better than 75k. The parts like dampers, bushings and cooling system are all fine at 75k but you are looking down the barrel of a lot of work in the next 25k miles.

That stuff is all done by a good owner by the 110k mark so bonus you if a stock car is what you are after... or if isn't, you can lowball a nice car with needs.

I honestly prefer the nice car with deferred work over a factory parts refresh because I want to upgrade all of it anyway. I am always on the lookout for the straight, clean E36 M3 with 90k and in need of everything all at once. They can be had cheap ($5-6k) and they are easy cars to do all the work on so... not a huge deal to just order $2k parts and have a practically new car for $7-8k. Even better - 120k, blown head gasket for $2500

That's what mine looked like when I bought it in '07, before I ruined it by slowly making it a track car.

Let's assume that everyone knows that all 10 yr old BMWs need a cooling system, m-kay?

In that case, drive it and read every piece of paper to find out what's been done, and to extrapolate what it's going to need.

Have a good independent shop do a pre-purchase inspection - preferably NOT the shop at which it's spent a lot of time and money. You're looking for an unbiased inspection.

If nothing is bent, rusty or repaired, and the leakdown and compression numbers are good, buy it.

+1 on motomoron's PPI advice...

Knurled wrote:

7pilot wrote: If the rear dampers are the original Sachs, ie ratty looking or leaking, then you can expect a bill for refreshing the bushings and suspension at both ends of the car. This would require the seller to drop the price by the potential repair cost.

Why? If they were perfect, the car would be going for more money.

As a general rule, I agree. But this car is at the higher end of the price spectrum for an over 100k mile car. For that money, I would expect all or most of the known failure areas to have been addressed already, including the bushings.