Eating crow... a learn me thread

nderwater wrote: I stopped in at a local Porsche club autocross to check it out. I introduced myself to a couple of participants who were spectating between runs and mentioned that I lived close by and really should look into joining them at a future event... I was told (not jokingly) to buy a Porsche first. I was a little put off and left soon after. What, were they afraid of being beat-up on by my M3?

I attended one PCA autocross in my T-Bird SC in Street Mod trim. I was the only non-Porsche there; my car had to weigh at least 3,600 at that point. I ended up less than .3 off FTD behind an X Prepared 914-6 and well ahead of some 944 racecars. It was glorious.

coming from a 7, the view will be similar, but definitely more German, and the torques will be welcome in stop and go. The thing that bothers me most about 944's are the gauge faces...they are so distorted. The ride more than makes up for it though. Have Fun!

nderwater wrote: I was told (not jokingly) to buy a Porsche first. I was a little put off and left soon after.

Keep in mind that the person you were speaking to may have been a giant male chicken (cock) The PCA people I've dealt with at various track days have been 100% friendly to non-stutgart car participation.

Don't let that one prick put you off.

^I've had similar experiences running into giant male chickens with the BMW club. Every group has theirs and they tend to attract others just like them. Its hit or miss...

The FB and the '44 are both great cars. I'd prefer to the '44 from a driver's perspective and the PCA is a great club. I have much more of a connection with the FB, FC and FD.

Good luck in your choice. Variety is the spice of life.

honestly when it deals with BMWs.. those male chickens tend to also pick on lessor "models" within the BMW framily too. Generally, the further you get from the "model to have" the less likely you run into a male chicken.

Yeah John and I both passed on that 944 trade. It's owned by a 17 year old, has a title from 95 (not in his name), and the dash has been swapped. Yeah, VIN's are on the dash... No tags, hasn't been registered or inspected since 95, has no service records, and all of the gauges (including the ODO) are INOP.

Pass.

On the other hand, I have all winter to find the "right" one and sell my 7. Time to write a GRM ad...

I remember back in high school/early college when I was looking for a project car I very seriously considered a 944. Gettin nostalgic about it. Pricey though, and in the end I'm glad I got the E30.

I've driven a couple of them. ThunderCougarFalconGoat has had 3 (only 2 ran, and not very often at that) but he also had a nasty habit of buying cars from shady characters on street corners.

That's why I'm going to go out of my way to find a clean one.

mad_machine wrote: honestly when it deals with BMWs.. those male chickens tend to also pick on lessor "models" within the BMW framily too. Generally, the further you get from the "model to have" the less likely you run into a male chicken.

I give all my buddies a hard time for having heavy/ugly non-E30 BMWs.

JeepinMatt wrote: I remember back in high school/early college when I was looking for a project car I very seriously considered a 944. Gettin nostalgic about it. Pricey though, and in the end I'm glad I got the E30.

I remember back in high school 944s were new, which I guess makes me OLD

pigeon wrote:

JeepinMatt wrote: I remember back in high school/early college when I was looking for a project car I very seriously considered a 944. Gettin nostalgic about it. Pricey though, and in the end I'm glad I got the E30.

I remember back in high school 944s were new, which I guess makes me OLD

I remember seeing a 944 in "16 Candles" it was new and HOT!

I too am old, but that is OK cuz now I can afford on eand back then, no way I could have had one.

P71 wrote: Am I nuts? Will my cheapskate brain go insane when I get the first repair bill? All I know is Audra already approved dumping the loud, stinky, finicky rotary for a "pretty" Porsche...

Yes you are nuts... In a very good way.

My 1984 944 race car - at NASA Nationals 2009

my 944 Turbo S Street car - at a PCA event inside a hanger at the Pima Air Muesum. (we were allowed to park among the aircraft)

I have been a PCA member since 1999. It has been a nice experince. I first started with my 88 Turbo S despite being under 25 and with "fancy VW" I was accepted. Over the years I did many things with the PCA and my autocross and track time were great. In fact that is what lead me to even consider racing. I built my 944 as an autocross car in 2000. I stripped it out and put on some Kumho Victoracers and had fun. By 2002 I decided to race it and got PCA club racing licenese. Soon after it was 944 spec in NASA as the class started in Arizona where I live in 2002. I was the 3rd car in the class back in the spring of 2002. As for longevity those other two 944 spec cars are currently still racing in 944 spec today. My race car has 104 races on it and still very competitive. I was lucky enough to lead 8 of 16 Laps at Nationals in a 34 car field. Sadly I was in 4th when cross the line, but on 2.5 seconds out of first.

joe,

Pretty! I think I'm going to look for a dark metallic one. I like gray and blue. Maybe even a black one. I'm a little sick of red right now though (I've had a red car from 2002 to present in one form or another).

I do think I might try and hold out for an 87-88 "Series 3". They have a little more compression, a little more power, the nicer interior, the modified suspension, and seem to run around the same price.

Well there is a misconception there. The 87 does not have the higher compression motor. That only came in 1988. However in 89 the motor when to 2.7L. Modest bump in hp, but better torque. It was however a 1 year only model. By 1990 the 8 valve cars were dead (even the turbo) replaced by the 3.0L 16 valve motors.

Now the actual hp output of these cars is really the same from 83 to 88. Despite the different ratings and increse in compression from 9.5:1 to 10.2:1 in 1988. This has been shown by the race cars in 944 spec. We allow 9.5:1 and 10.2:1 cars and neither has and edge. In practice the 87 and 88 street cars are not faster than the 83s due to more creature comforts adding weight. Also the modded suspension has no change in spring rates, but was modded to allow for ABS. ABS is a rare option on the 87 and 88 944. Otherwise it all performs pretty much the same. The wheel offset change in 87 so the 83-86 cars use different wheels than 87 and later cars. When it comes to wheels Porsche factory wheels are the way to go since getting the 5x130 bolt pattern aftermarket wheel is rare and expensive. However swapping wheels from other Porsche models is common.

Hard to say year range is best as I would need to know your plans for the car. For 944 spec build the early chassis tend to be lighter and easier to get to weight. I also like early 3 gauge dash for track cars. I can move the tach around to get it right in the middle. The later interior cars are better on the street due to a superior HVAC system and more modern touchs. Not as good on the track since that dash tends to be heavier and gauges are a singl e pod can can be moved.

Here is the interior from my 139k 88 Turbo S.

Oh... Cost.. cheapest cars are 83 and 84. However really for most a good example is better than trying cherry pick a year.

As for my car colors.

5/6 of my 944's have been red. Not by choice, but that just happened to be the color of the car I was looking at at that time. I think 50% of production was in red.

87 924S (Parts car)- Red (Same as early interior 944, but with late 944 engine and suspension parts) 88 944 Turbo S Red (one of only 110 in red of this model) 84 944 (show car sold)- Red 84 944 (Race car) - Red/white 83 944 (parts car) - light blue/silver 88 924S (parts car) - red

nderwater wrote: I stopped in at a local Porsche club autocross to check it out. I introduced myself to a couple of participants who were spectating between runs and mentioned that I lived close by and really should look into joining them at a future event... I was told (not jokingly) to buy a Porsche first. I was a little put off and left soon after. What, were they afraid of being beat-up on by my M3?

lol....I"ve run the subaru (with a couple other subaru guys) at several BMW CCA autocross events (mostly at Summit Point). While the BMW guys are overall very cool about other car makes running, you do have to ignore 3 or 4 people (usually M3 drivers, btw) every event asking you "hey, what is understeer like?" or commenting that "AWD is for people who can't drive." har har har....

Luckily, several of these events have been wet courses or rainy days.....so I usually got the last laugh

..

color?

I always end up with the odd ball colors

my 87 924S: Silver with an 80's horizon/sunset [in stripe thing going on. It is factory color schem, just rare

my 944 is Diamond Blue Matalic, not rare on Porsches, just rare on a 944: Hard to photcraph, alwasy comes outmore grey than it is. best seeing the color on a clody day as wierd as that sounds

That Diamond Blue is gorgeous!

So Joe, and I really value your input, you're saying there's no HP difference between the 88 and the 83-87? Is the aluminum suspension worth the additional cost? I like both interiors, and I think I'd prefer the late one, but I like the idea of the replaceable ball joints on the early version. I'm kind of torn on which direction to go.

My dad had an 84 maroon 944 that he put 240,000 miles on before he went just a little too long before changing the timing belt on. They are great cars, but from what I remember not terribly fun to work on..

The Aluminum front arms aren't worth it. Aside from the cracking problems some have, the geometry is the same as the steel and the steel arms can be boxed in to stiffen them up.

BTW, you can rebuild the balljoints in the aluminum armed cars, it just isn't cheap. They even have longer balljoint stud solutions that will correct the control arm cracking issues.

http://www.rennbay.com/-c-30_48.html

The rears are just slightly lighter, again not worth it, unless you are trying to lighten the car.

So I should just go for the cost savings of an early (82-85) and enjoy the old school interior? Carrera4's black 83 project is for sale in the classifieds and we started talking...

P71 wrote: That Diamond Blue is gorgeous! So Joe, and I really value your input, you're saying there's no HP difference between the 88 and the 83-87? Is the aluminum suspension worth the additional cost? I like both interiors, and I think I'd prefer the late one, but I like the idea of the replaceable ball joints on the early version. I'm kind of torn on which direction to go.

Yes from 83-88 the rated hp levels changed, but in practice a good 83 will be faster than a poor 88. Condition is more important than year. Now some of that rating change is actually due to a change in the conversions and rating system. All 83-87 cars were rated at the same Kw (killowatts rated used in Europe). The 88 was rated slightly higher, but in stock form is also heavier. Heck even stripped out it takes more work lower the weight of an 88 tub as compared to the earlier tubs.

The aluminum suspension is mix blessing. They say the front end is stiffer, but racing on track the difference is not apprent. The steel arms are VW parts so $25 each with $11 ball joints. The aluminum arms are $500+ each and don't have replaceable ball joints. Well you can replace the joints, but these are aftermarket kits. There are two aluminium arm lengths also. The 85.5-86 arms are the same length as the steel ones, but the 87 and 88 are longer. These longer arms in theory improves the supension geometry up front, but again in pratice is hardly noticable. You can retro fit steel arms on the 85.5 and 86 model years.

When you lower an aluminum arm car you need to monitor the ball joints closely as they can fail. The steel arms ball joints seem indestrcutable. The steel arms can develop cracks, but at $25 each the simply replacements. I keep a spare (they are mirror left and right) for my 944 spec car in my parts bin. I can replace at the track and by being carefull not mess-up the aligment.

In the rear the suspenison also change from steel in 83-85 to aluminum from 85.5 and up. These arms last a long time and are considered "superior". In practice I don't know it makes any difference.

They late interior is better on a street car, but if you don't plan on running A/C just want to strip it anyway... don't worry about the interior.

Again... the 88 is on paper the "best" model, but in practice there is no differece. I have been racing 944 spec since 2002 and we have never found any year of car to be "the car to have". What we have found is the car to have is a good car. Junkers take more time and money to get right, but even then a junker can be a winner. It just takes more effort.

My 84 is a mixed bag since I have 3 parts cars from different years. Nealy all the parts from 83-88 fit in other years. Heck even parts from the 944 Turbo and S2 or 968 fit on these cars. So mixing and matching is very easy. My 84 is mix of 84, 87,83, and 88 parts. I even used an 84 bottom end and 87 top end with zero issues.

So find the best car that fits your goals. Don't let the model year worry you.

P71,

When you're ready to buy, check out the LA-area Craigslist ads and buy one out here. I see them around every day and 95 percent look great. Even the "beaters" have no rust. Whatever you spend in airfare and hotels will return to you double in relief from rust repair. You can spend your cheapskate cash on improving the car instead or reconstructing it.

The 944 was galvanized IIRC, so rust was never really and issue with them.