Edmunds damages 2015 F150 on purpose

Edmunds needed some press because their writing isn't up to par like the other companies.

Direct repair insurance times are pretty low, just ask a body guy. Plus the company will actually haggle with the repair shop threatening to revoke direct repair status unless they get the cost down. That is why you get used parts instead of new and the tech doesn't give a crap what it looks like because his hours got cut in half.

I believe the "discount" was off of what the initial insurance write-up would have been. They would never get that as the adjuster would be sent out to confirm and then counter-offer what they think it should cost.

The aluminum panels that Ford uses require a completely separate set of equipment, welders, techniques than the equipment used on steel. Not to mention the training/certification needed to fix these trucks. This is a sizable investment by the shop that needs to be recovered. Hence the higher labor charge.

Mr_Clutch42 wrote: Edmunds needed some press because their writing isn't up to par like the other companies.

I don't think that's the case at all. I think they just had the balls to do what everyone was asking as soon as we found out Ford went to aluminum for their F-150. I distinctly remember that being a huge question here on the board.

At least nobody rigged the fuel tanks to explode.

I don't get this 'cash vs insurance' discount. I work for a body shop and we charge a higher labor rate to customers than what insurers pay per hour. The customer rate is actually far more realistic but frankly I cringe every time I have a 'customer pay' file because any supplemental bill for additional damage is met with unhappiness and angst whereas the insurer will just pay for it. Customer pay repairs are a PITA.

My first thought of the dent was, "well, no rush to fix that since I shouldn't have to worry about rusting, being aluminum."

A couple questions in my mind..

How many Ford body shops would have skills necessary to repair aluminum? I truly don't know the answer, am curious. F150 just arrived. Are there other alum vehicles likely to end up in that shop? (I'm naive in this area, fortunately)

How was this repaired, most likely? Hammer and dolly, then filler?

Ask your doctor or dentist for the "self pay" price on your next visit. I know one who only takes self pay customers. It was eye opening.

In reply to OHSCrifle:

We've been told that lots of time was spent making sure that not only were the plants and suppliers ready, but the dealers were ready for it, too.

(then again, these were the same people who told us that the DSG was a good idea)

ddavidv wrote: I don't get this 'cash vs insurance' discount. I work for a body shop and we charge a higher labor rate to customers than what insurers pay per hour. The customer rate is actually far more realistic but frankly I cringe every time I have a 'customer pay' file because any supplemental bill for additional damage is met with unhappiness and angst whereas the insurer will just pay for it. Customer pay repairs are a PITA.

^ This is exactly right. Again, I know all the fear and loathing of insurance companies, but a lot of what's in this thread is not accurate. Most shops (not all, but most) would prefer to deal with insurance and charge more for self pay. Writing an estimate to repair a car isn't as black and white as a lot of people think. There's a lot of grey and a lot of judgment calls. Some shops are easy to work with, some have their only agenda as ripping off insurance companies for every penny they can. Insurance companies, as I've said a lot, pay what they owe. Not more, not less. The whole used vs new parts is another topic for another time. But there really isn't a ton of paperwork to be done when a shop deals with insurance. With technology now, it's actually quite easy for shops....and insurance companies.

As for repair vs replace and aluminum, yes and yes on the higher rates and less repair. It takes more care and skill to repair it and not all shops have technicians who can do it. Therefore, the labor rate is higher. And regardless of the type of metal, many shops now don't bother trying to repair anything, they just replace. But with the right skilled hands, aluminum can be repaired properly. I once paid a body shop something like 70 labor hours, at $120/hour, to fabricate part of an A pillar on a fairly new Bentley. It had been hit right between the door and fender and Bentley didn't sell just the pillar. You had to buy the whole uniside assembly, which was something like $25,000 for the part and 100 labor hours to install. The shop didn't want to do that, so as the insurance company (hold your breath everyone) I worked with them to come up with the best solution to make the car right. I think as aluminum becomes more common, more shops will be able to handle it and the costs will come down for labor.

Not knowing the specifics of the vehicle in question, I can't address the rationale for the higher rates. As an amateur panel beater, I prefer working in Aluminum, but apples and oranges. OTOH, as a businessman, I know that anything new is generally looked upon as both a PITA, and an opportunity for additional profit. i.e. "If they can pony up for the new tech, they can eat higher repair costs as well".

Ignoring all the discussion of insurance.....

Holy crap that thing took the hit well! I would love to see the same hit done on a '14 steel truck for a direct comparison but i bet it wouldn't fare nearly so well...

And $52k? I was looking at trucks a couple months back and the first F150 I approached was a loaded FX4 that was stickered as $57k. So...at least go can't blame the aluminum.

In reply to ultraclyde:

I would blame the sticker price on all the gadgets, leather, and other things that would make it a "loaded" truck.

JohnRW1621 wrote: My first thought of the dent was, "well, no rush to fix that since I shouldn't have to worry about rusting, being aluminum."

I would say that all of the aluminum Audis that have been on the road for 15 or so years now seem to have held up okay, but then I remembered that Ford has been known to use aluminum that practically oxidizes audibly. (Fuel pump module anyone?)

Material selection and coating is key. I would think that a sizeable dent would hurt the latter. Although, there's also scadloads of GMs out there with aluminum subframes with deep curb scarring that never corrode, so there's also that.

I guess the point of the babble is: The possibility for corrosion is outasight, but at the same time it CAN be done right. There isn't really a middle ground.

BoxheadTim wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: I'll bet there's a significant overhead in time in paperwork to simply deal with the insurance company. Someone's gotta pay for that.

^This would be my hunch, too. Some doctors give discounts for cash/immediate payment for the same reason. My dentist does that, for example, as he doesn't have to wait a couple of months to get paid.

This is exactly right. I work with the systems that bill for and get paid for healthcare services. The whole thing is in general a giant crock of E36 M3.

ex. 1 night in a hospital bed, including NOTHING else - any drugs or supplies would be separate.

cost to the hospital about $200 (lights/heat, nurses, cleaning)

charge on the patient account $1500 (this is generally considered 'cheap' across the national averages)

If you have insurance, the insurance gets a bill for $1500. That particular insurance company may have a 'contract' with that hospital (and then push their patients to only go to contracted hospitals and doctors).

If the insurance company has a 'contract', they have agreed to pay about 25-30% of any hospital charges. Therefore, they pay $500. (insurance payment also prevents the hospital from coming after the patient for the rest - outside of the portion the patient actually owes according to their personal contract with the insurance company).

If the insurance company does not have a 'contract', they often will pay about 40% of the charges sent to them, so $600. Since YOU are considered AT FAULT for not going to the right hospital, some insurance companies will let the hospital come after you (the patient) for the balance.

If you do not have insurance, you will be likely given an AUTOMATIC (meaning before you even call and complain that you cannot pay) 40% "discount" for not having insurance. So you get a bill for $900. If you then call and tell them you cannot pay it, they will gladly 'write-off' about $400 more if you actually send a check for the remainder.

SOOO, a ton of hullabaloo just for them to get their 'rightful' 100%-150% mark up on services (cost $200, they end up getting $300-500).

The thing that kills me about the whole system is the only people who get screwed are the ones without insurance who don't complain and just pay (generally retirees).

also - if you don't have insurance, ask your provider up-front if you can pay the medicare contracted rate (ask to pay up-front too). Medicare generally has the 'best' contracts (meaning they pay the least). Medicare is also not accepted everywhere because of this.

But for the most part - providers are HAPPY to get the medicare reimbursement rate and no more if there is no fussing needed.

GameboyRMH wrote: W So this trucks costs $52k!?!?!? I didn't realize low-end pickups were suffering from the student-loan-like price inflation the big diesels were...

They've been that pricey (or more) for quite some time now.

I would love to see how they did the repair on the dents. From the way the metal behaved, the aluminum was not of an alloy that was happy to be formed.

Aluminum stretches a lot more than steel for a given force. That makes it harder to put the panel back into shape. If welding needs to take place, look around and see how many people you know with this expertize? It ain't going to be the MIG welder, or at least not without an attachment.

The other challenge is that alloy is often glued rather than spotwelded. I bet that makes it a treat to pull the panel off.

My feeling is that the bodyshops quoted in the article and invested in training and equipment. In London, there are only two shops with certificates to fix the alloy jags (whatever that entails) So what is going to happen when these trucks start to hit the backyard bodyshops?

The payoff to all this is that the alloy trucks may not rust the way the metal ones do. Curious to see how that works out.

I live near a shop that proclaims that it is the only body repair shop in some ludicrously large radius certified to repair the aluminum Astons and Jags and whatnot. As with hybrid repairs, there will be two schools of thought: People who don't want to work on different things, and people who see that attitude as throwing away money and embrace change so they can scoop up all of that work nobody else wants to do. One of these mindsets will make money in the future and the other will not, and economic Darwinism is ruthless in its efficiency.

I work for a shop that does a lot of work that other shops refuse to touch. The customers get sent to us or we get work subbed out to us by the other shops. Either way, we are busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest and we think the attitude of "it's difficult/not what we're used to so it's bad" is incredibly foolish.

Point regarding gluing vs. spot welding: A lot of steel cars are glued together as well. GM famously started doing it on the last of the 3rd-gen F-bodies because the stamping dies were getting so worn out that it was the only way they could make the cars hold up.

Well, if this thread accomplishes one thing, hopefully it will be more people realizing how different aluminum body repair is vs steel. Stretching, welding (dont forget stud pulling here), work hardening/fatigue, etc. As said, when aluminum becomes more common, the necessary skills and equipment will proliferate and the cost to repair will come down.

NOHOME wrote: The payoff to all this is that the alloy trucks may not rust the way the metal ones do. Curious to see how that works out.

Pet peeve - aluminum IS metal.
Smaller pet peeve - any metal can be alloyed, not just aluminum.