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DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) PowerDork
2/22/21 8:28 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

If you are going to build a Challenge car, stick to what you know. That's road racing, just think of the autocross set up as a road racing set up for the tightest road course you've ever run on. Ideally, have some adjustable sway bars and shocks to twiddle with. Don't even think about making a decent drag car unless you come across a few really cheap parts. The scoring is based on combined times, so getting a second quicker on the autocross is easier than doing it on the drag strip. Leave the expectations for 9 and 10 second passes to the Nelsons and one or two others. The on-line ET calculators are optimistic, but are more accurate for heavier or lower powered cars. High power to weight calcs don't allow for all the other factors that come into play, it will give you an ideal answer, not one for a Challenge car that isn't optimized or driven by a person with lots of experience with car set up. Just getting the car to bite properly off the line will keep you occupied far too long. One calculator yields a 10.50 ET for my Corolla. If it does 12.00  I'll be surprised and happy.

As for your converter question, try searching for "stall converter" and see what shows up locally. I was able to snag a 3500 stall, 10" Boss Hog converter for $50 that will work in my TH350.

The biggest challenge faced in building a Challenge car is actually building the car, not competing with it. The competition and the friendships made are just the gravy.

Apexcarver
Apexcarver UltimaDork
2/22/21 8:35 a.m.

is this discussion centered on the challenge?

 

Well, you could compute what weight transfer does for forward grip with some variables and some semi-basic math (if you want to do this, I suggest the Carrol Smith books, specifically "Tune To Win", as a place to start). Computing what the rebound for that drag launch would do for autocross would take a lot more and need a per-turn computation. This engineers best guess is that the time cost on the autocross would be far, far more than the time gained on the strip. The strip benefit will largely come down to how much excess power you have that you need the added traction from the weight transfer. Now, you could make shock adjustments and swap springs if you can work in the proper components to the budget, but also, there is a lot to be said for the effects of tire construction. A soft sidewall drag tire vs a stiff sidewall RR/AX cornering centered tire will also impact the weight transfer (with added tire footprint effects increasing traction. You can do both and get more advantage, but its like I said before...  how much excess power do you have (over existant traction on the autox setup) for how much time reduction in your 60'. If its one setup for all, remember, these effects will cost you in every turn on the autocross, so that will add up to a bigger (advantage) loss than the strips gain.

 

Cliffs notes...  While a auto-x car can go down a drag strip with some loss in 60' time va the same drivetrain/weight in a drag car. The drag car will fall all over itself in every turn in an autocross and add up to a bigger time lost.  (that said, I am not the most up on the challenges scoring system)

 

The problem with many of these types of general questions is that the best answer is usually very very detailed in the specifics of the application and conditions. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/22/21 9:35 a.m.

In reply to Apexcarver :

Honestly, it's not clear. 
 

But Frenchy is not a drag racer, and never will be. He has no interest in learning drag racing, except as it applies to the Challenge. 
 

So yes, I think this discussion is centered on the Challenge (but we may have to wait until Frenchy clarifies)

stafford1500
stafford1500 GRM+ Memberand Dork
2/22/21 9:54 a.m.

I appreciate that Frenchy is trying to detail design the car he wants to build, but like most first timers for the Challenge what he really needs to do is build SOMETHING and SHOW UP.

A top 10 car is a ton of work for a team of folks, much less by yourself. As with any new endeavor, the majority of the gains early on will come from doing and learning what you are not doing well. Since Frenchy admits he has only drag raced once and Auto-x'd once he would be better off showing up in ANYTHING and getting some seat time. Oh and have fun, that is what we are mostly after.

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/22/21 10:18 a.m.

In reply to stafford1500 :

I totally agree. 
 

Frenchy is not gonna show up. The travel is too far. But he is apparently going to try to build something by the Challenge rules he can take to local drag strip and autoX to try to make a comparison. 
 

(I know- that's really hard, but I admire the effort)

 

I think he is hoping to prove how well a V12 can perform.  Or at least come up with a way to participate long distance. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/22/21 10:22 a.m.

My first Challenge car placed 13th overall in a field of 75 cars (IIRC). But that was a LOONG time ago (2004), and the event has changed drastically since then. 
 

No one had run faster than a 12 second drag time back then. It was the first year the Nelsons showed up (and ran 10's), (and the last time I placed higher than them!! Haha!)

There is no way I could get close to the top 10 now if I was a newbie.

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) PowerDork
2/22/21 10:28 a.m.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

Oh poppycock !!    That Miata I brought in 2017 was the 4th fastest car there on dynamic score and finished 8th overall. Top Ten isn't that hard, it depends on what vehicle you decide to start with and what you focus on. I focused on the autocross because that's what I know best. You have the knowledge and Challenge experience to do a Top Ten car pretty readily I think. An R53 MINI on some SM7 tires would be a good start.

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/22/21 10:37 a.m.

In reply to DeadSkunk (Warren) :

I've made the top ten more than once. And Ive made the podium.  I can easily do top 10 cars.  In fact, I don't consider I've tried if I DON'T make the top 10.   But I'm not a newbie. 
 

My point was I was agreeing with Stafford about how hard it is to reach the top 10 as a newbie, but that the most important thing is to just show up. 

DeadSkunk  (Warren)
DeadSkunk (Warren) PowerDork
2/22/21 10:57 a.m.

In reply to SVreX (Forum Supporter) :

I missed the newbie bit. I'm not getting better at reading as I age.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
2/22/21 6:35 p.m.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to stafford1500 :

I totally agree. 
 

Frenchy is not gonna show up. The travel is too far. But he is apparently going to try to build something by the Challenge rules he can take to local drag strip and autoX to try to make a comparison. 
 

(I know- that's really hard, but I admire the effort)

 

I think he is hoping to prove how well a V12 can perform.  Or at least come up with a way to participate long distance. 

You summed it up exactly. Thank you. 
     I love the concept. Budget restricted CanAm rules.  I've mouthed off enough about how good JaguarV12 for how cheap it is. It's time I show what  I can do with one. 
     Besides my Wife's cancer surgery was very successful and today the Doctor pronounced her Cancer free.   No Chemo, No Radiation 

   That leaves a tidy little sum to play with the Jaguar. 
 

Oh, Sunday I looked up the record for a Jaguar XJSV12.  In 1982 one went 9.710 @ 137 in the 1/4 mile.  So I have a bit of a target to hit. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/22/21 6:47 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Congratulations on the tremendous news about your wife!

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
2/22/21 6:49 p.m.

In reply to stafford1500 :

  But I've been racing since 1962. And on an extremely modest budget I feel I've done remarkably well. 
The highliite of my life was beating Sir Sterling Moss in the factory Aston Martin DBR2  in my only autocross driving my BlackJackSpecial in the 1986 BahamaSpreed week  I came in second overall for the week. 
     A very close second was winning against the best Vintage cars in the nation at NAS North  Island San Diego  beating 2 Ferrari Testa Rossa's,   the 1956 LeMans winning D type Jaguar, Duntov's 1957 Corvette SS, Porsche RSK, and more than a dozen other very fine cars.  ( that field is my avatar )
      I've got decades of racing experiance with cars I built. Very successfully. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
2/22/21 6:57 p.m.
DeadSkunk (Warren) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

If you are going to build a Challenge car, stick to what you know. That's road racing, just think of the autocross set up as a road racing set up for the tightest road course you've ever run on. Ideally, have some adjustable sway bars and shocks to twiddle with. Don't even think about making a decent drag car unless you come across a few really cheap parts. The scoring is based on combined times, so getting a second quicker on the autocross is easier than doing it on the drag strip. Leave the expectations for 9 and 10 second passes to the Nelsons and one or two others. The on-line ET calculators are optimistic, but are more accurate for heavier or lower powered cars. High power to weight calcs don't allow for all the other factors that come into play, it will give you an ideal answer, not one for a Challenge car that isn't optimized or driven by a person with lots of experience with car set up. Just getting the car to bite properly off the line will keep you occupied far too long. One calculator yields a 10.50 ET for my Corolla. If it does 12.00  I'll be surprised and happy.

As for your converter question, try searching for "stall converter" and see what shows up locally. I was able to snag a 3500 stall, 10" Boss Hog converter for $50 that will work in my TH350.

The biggest challenge faced in building a Challenge car is actually building the car, not competing with it. The competition and the friendships made are just the gravy.

Sunday I went looking for what sort of time a JaguarXJSV12 has turned. 
9.710. @147 mph in the 1/4 mile. 1982.  So I guess  I have a target. 
     Since I can't afford the round trip costs My "Challenge" will be done locally. Maybe some other locals will come along and we can have our own event.  Maybe they'll want to drive and hopefully beat my time. I suppose then I'll have to call them the pro's. ;-) 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
2/22/21 6:57 p.m.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Congratulations on the tremendous news about your wife!

Thank you. 

stafford1500
stafford1500 GRM+ Memberand Dork
2/22/21 7:03 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to stafford1500 :

  But I've been racing since 1962. And on an extremely modest budget I feel I've done remarkably well. 
The highliite of my life was beating Sir Sterling Moss in the factory Aston Martin DBR2  in my only autocross driving my BlackJackSpecial in the 1986 BahamaSpreed week  I came in second overall for the week. 
     A very close second was winning against the best Vintage cars in the nation at NAS North  Island San Diego  beating 2 Ferrari Testa Rossa's,   the 1956 LeMans winning D type Jaguar, Duntov's 1957 Corvette SS, Porsche RSK, and more than a dozen other very fine cars.  ( that field is my avatar )
      I've got decades of racing experiance with cars I built. Very successfully. 

Frenchy, first,congrats on your wife's diagnosis. Second, I know you have a ton of history, especially with jag based race cars and that is great. I actually would love to sit around and hear some of your memories from those days.

My primary goal was to say in an overly long way - Don't overthink it, just build what you want and have some fun. Leave the details for after you get the car up and running.

Overthinking gets you in the same place I am with the project car that has lived with me longer than my wife and still has only run up and down the street a handful of times. I am really good at over-thinking things, however, I can see that in other peoples plans and call them on it.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/22/21 7:08 p.m.
DeadSkunk (Warren) said:
An R53 MINI on some SM7 tires would be a good start.

 

Paging Evan...

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
2/22/21 7:27 p.m.

In reply to stafford1500 :

My limits are always financial. Thinking is something I can do that's free.   
     I love the concept. Budget limited racing.

 But my experiance so far is lall W2W. No experience  drag racing except that one pass that I trophied.   One Autocross that I won.  The pure volume of stuff I don't know would choke a horse.  
    Someone suggested I just use a pair of 90/10 shocks I pick up used. Great idea. ( nice thing is the shocks on the front are outside the spring so it should be very easy to swap). I guess that's going to be the extent of drag racing prep. Oh and switch to a set of drag slicks. ( Chevy bolt pattern so that won't be hard either) 

As of now.For the autocross  I'll chop a coil &1/2 from the front springs and make a home made spring jacker.  couple of big bolts and some plate welded in. Easy peasy.  
Jaguar uses rubber to isolate the front and rear suspension.  Remove that,  bolt the front and rear solidly down and I've just lowered the car an inch.  The cut Coil will drop it almost 2 inches in front. Leaving about 2&1/4" between the oil pan and ground. That's plenty low. 
     The stock drag link on the IRS causes toe in and out depending on ••••• if that is removed and a link connected to the inner pivot point at a 45 degree angle. The toe change is eliminated. The rear end feels a lot more solidly planted.  
    I'll leave the stock front sway bar in place For the challenge. Switch to a tubular one inch for road racing afterwards. 

RXBeetle
RXBeetle Reader
2/22/21 7:30 p.m.

In an attempt to get back to the question of varying suspension stiffness relatively quickly and cheaply; there is an off the shelf solution. Spring rubbers between the coils reduce the number of active coils stiffening the spring. Some big hose (rad hose? chunks of tire?) and zip ties could probably be made to work. 
https://pitstopusa.com/c-132502-suspension-components-springs-spring-accessories-spring-rubbers.html

You could also play with removable big soft bump rubbers. A smooth autocross course needs very little suspension to "work". 

Great to hear your wife is doing well!

 

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
2/22/21 7:36 p.m.

For your first challenge the only attempt to mitigate the compromise between an autocross car and a drag car I would make would be to have specific autocross tires, and specific drag slicks. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
2/22/21 7:37 p.m.

In reply to RXBeetle :

That's a great idea!  Is JCWhitney still around. They used to sell rubber spacers you could just twist into place with a rachet.  

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
2/22/21 7:39 p.m.
MrJoshua said:

For your first challenge the only attempt to mitigate the compromise between an autocross car and a drag car I would make would be to have specific autocross tires, and specific drag slicks. 

I figured on that.  A set of tires is"free" and I can buy ( or rent? ) a used set of slicks to fit a Chevy. 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
2/22/21 10:24 p.m.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

Hang on!

Once again... if this is a Challenge car, then MOST of the drag racing answers are irrelevant. 
 

Reaction times DO NOT matter at the Challenge. Only ET. 
 

The ENTIRE event is a compromise on EVERYTHING. 

And it's important to understand the dynamic times. The autocross and drag race times are added together, and considered as a single dynamic speed number. That means you can win with a car that is good at one event, and not so good at the other. 
 

I set up my cars to be easy to compromise.  My cars are mostly autocross- I'm not a drag racer. So, I set them up to run flat in the corners. To get some weight transfer in the drags, I switch to big drag tires, put shims in the rear subframes to lift the body higher (and get it off the tires), and disconnect the anti-sway bars.  Lots of changes in tire pressures.  If I have adjustable shocks, I also switch them from full firm to full soft. 
 

My Miata ran 12 second ETs, with a 1.6 second 60' launch. That's not the best drag race time, but it's pretty darned good for a Miata sitting on an IRS.  And it's competitive enough. It was a podium finish overall. It was 2nd in the autocross (the part I'm a little better at)
 

Build the car you are most capable of, then figure out what compromises you can make easily to compete in the other event. 

That makes a lot of sense. Especially since they have pro's available. ( can I get the Nelsons for the drag race please;-)   Ok I'll go quietly. 

stukndapast
stukndapast Reader
2/23/21 12:12 a.m.

RANT ON -- Having been a drag racer since the late 60's, competing in countless NHRA and IHRA events, setting NHRA records, and only recently having discovered the pleasures of autocross, track days and road racing, I would like to respectfully request that y'all stop talking about a DRAG RACE in the CHALLENGE.  THERE IS NO DRAG RACE IN THE CHALLENGE.  There is a 1/4 mile ELAPSED TIME RUN in the challenge.  There is NO RACE.  A drag race is a competition between two cars from a standing start for a specified distance and whoever gets there first wins.  (Yeah, I know, breakouts and all that E36 M3, let's not go there).  The vast majority of the skill in drag racing is the start and the finish; properly staging, cutting a light, hitting your shift points and taking just enough stripe to win.  In handicap racing it also depends mightily on choosing the right dial-in.  None of that comes into play in this challenge thing.  It's not drag racing, so stop calling it that.  -- RANT OFF

For the OP's question, from a technical ET perspective, you want the suspension set up to provide the as much weight transfer on the initial movement of the car as is needed to provide necessary loading of the drive tires such that they don't loose traction, i.e. spin.  On a low powered car, you don't need a lot of weight transfer with decent tires.  On a high powered car with a great suspension designed for a standing start launch, it is what is needed, and no more.  On a high powered car with a lousy suspension you need a lot of weight transfer, even with good tires.  Watch a "pro-stock" car launch.  It doesn't do a ridiculous wheel stand.  It just barely pulls the front wheels off the ground, which means, obviously, that the weight of the car is being handled by the rear tires.  The multi-link suspension is set up just right to direct all available energy to planting the rear tires.  Putting the front of the car 4 feet in the air is wasted energy in that case.  Watch an older "stock" or "super stock" car launch and it is completely different.  Older high powered cars do crazy high wheelies because they are saddled with old, obsolete or structurally compromised rear suspensions.  Standing the car up on the rear tires is the best way to increase the rear tire loading in that situation.  You can't tune a leaf spring and shackles to work like a multi-link suspension.  Newer cars, like "factory stock" (which are anything but stock) have much better (i.e. modern) designed suspensions and, even though they are far, far faster than the "old" cars, they launch much more like a tube chassis, purpose built "pro-stock" car.  Small, low wheelies, even on a 9" slick (which is tiny in the drag race world).

For the OP's situation, with a fair amount of power in a light car, he will need as much weight transfer as he can get to keep from spinning the tires, and he needs good tires first and foremost.  If treated like an "old" drag race car, he wants a low friction front suspension with virtually no rebound damping, literally none.  I have known guys that actually drill a hole in the shock and drain all the oil out of them because the rules say you have to have a shock, but they don't really do anything.  The car is going to bounce though, and you have to be ready for it.  That is where the "90/10" shocks came in way back in the dark ages.  Very little rebound but tight compression to dampen the motion when the car comes back down.  They still bounce, but not as bad.  Most people just run double adjustables these days that have very light rebound settings and are velocity sensitive.  Before the urethane and Del-alum days some guys used to loosen the pivot bolts for the front suspension arms so that they would rotate more easily and not have to deflect the rubber bushings.  There was some scary E36 M3 stuff going on at the local drag strip.  The OP also wants as much weight as possible off the front end, dinky front wheels and tires, battery in the back, maximize the weight at the rear of the car.  Take the sway bar off.  He has an automatic with a torque converter and the converter is going to be the determining factor in how hard the car hits the rear tires on launch.  If it is a street converter with a low stall speed, he isn't going to hit the tires very hard unless he is making massive torque at 2500 RPM, and won't need as much traction, thus less weight transfer, as it would with a high stall speed converter.  I assume that he will not have a trans-brake, which could hit pretty hard even with a low stall speed.  A high stall speed converter would give better ET results, but will generate a lot of heat in a road course type of application, probably not the best thing to do for the "challenge".  He can control the hit to some degree by experimenting with launch RPM, i.e. how much RPM he puts against the converter while on the brakes at the start.  He can only go to the stall speed, of course, but the amount of "power braking" at the starting line can make a big difference in how hard the tires are hit and it is highly dependent on the car itself.  You just have to experiment to see what works best.  A lot of people think power braking to the stall speed gives the best launch, but many times "flashing" the converter from a lower RPM lets the converter torque multiplication work to your advantage provided you have enough traction to hold the power.

There is another HUGE factor that is completely unknown is track prep.  Starting line prep is everything to a high powered, small tire drag car.  Where are the ET sessions going to take place and how well is the starting line going to be prepared and maintained?  If it is prepped to a competition level expected by the small tire drag race community then the traction worries drop drastically.  If it isn't, well, then who knows what to expect.

yupididit
yupididit PowerDork
2/23/21 4:41 a.m.

In reply to stafford1500 :

I googled Frenchy's name and found some stuff about him and one of his cars he built. Pretty interesting. I'm not sure how comfortable he is with people knowing his real name so I won't post any links.

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/23/21 6:26 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I like your thinking, but you won't be running 9 second passes in the quarter mile your first time out. Especially in a Jaguar. 
 

The safety regs get stricter the faster you go, and some of the required parts are difficult to acquire on a limited budget. The Nelsons have accomplished it using Chevrolet parts (readily available at swap meets, etc). The same parts for a Jaguar would be custom (and expensive). Honestly, with no prior experience, it's unlikely you would not get through tech inspection for a 9 second car.  Plus, you are not licensed to drive it. 
 

Stick to what you know. 
 

Like Dead Skunk said, an autocross course is just a tiny road course. Build for that. A top finishing autocross car that is capable of running 13's is a contender for the overall win. 

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