End of an Era

Honestly, if paddle shifters are faster, I'll take it. I don't care if it's got a torque-converter or a DSG or PDK or SMG. So long as it'll blip on downshifts and is faster than the manual, I'll take it.

PS I think they named PDK for Pretty Darn Kwick.

mndsm wrote:

Ian F wrote: It is sad, but to be honest, I'm indifferent. The E39 is last M5 I'd be interested in anyway, regardless if the newer cars are faster.

This. E39 is where the m5 ended as far as i'm concerned.

Not me. I'd love to have an e60 M5 with a manual. They're rare, but out there. That V10 is a damn cool motor.

scardeal wrote: Honestly, if paddle shifters are faster, I'll take it. I don't care if it's got a torque-converter or a DSG or PDK or SMG. So long as it'll blip on downshifts and is faster than the manual, I'll take it.

Thats my thinking.

^ None of the fancies are faster (or harder shifting) than one of those. (It's a Clutchflite BTW, a 727 TorqueFlite auto trans built up for drag racing and equipped with a clutch for the launch).

But faster is pointless. A Veyron SS is the fastest car, so why drive anything else? Same logic. I can have fun in a 100HP Miata, and I can have fun rowing my own gears.

There are only two kinds of vehicles I would buy with an automatic, a big luxury sedan (see Jag) or a truck so a flappy paddle in an M5 doesn't bother me but flappy paddle only in a Ferrari doesn't.

Also not clutch pedal to me= automatic.

Anti-stance wrote:

scardeal wrote: Honestly, if paddle shifters are faster, I'll take it. I don't care if it's got a torque-converter or a DSG or PDK or SMG. So long as it'll blip on downshifts and is faster than the manual, I'll take it.

Thats my thinking.

Speed doesn't mean as much for us. It's more about the overall package and hands-on enjoyment of the car. It's why we have old Triumphs and Volvo's. It's why the g/f bought her MCS in '03 and sold the M3.

If budget be damned and I'm building a the fastest race car possible and an auto-box is faster, then sure - I'll get it. But for a street car I still want to shift for myself most of the time. If I were buildign a drag car, you're damn straight it would be an automatic.

Ian F wrote: If I were buildign a drag car, you're damn straight it would be an automatic.

Really?

I'd love a Nostalgia Super Stock with a 4-speed.

For me it comes down to repairs cost. Most cars seem to have to start worrying about transmission issues 100,000 miles+ clutches are a lot easier a wear item

Jaynen wrote: For me it comes down to repairs cost. Most cars seem to have to start worrying about transmission issues 100,000 miles+ clutches are a lot easier a wear item

After how much we just spent replacing a Volvo 850 automatic, you ain't kidding... Plus, I seem to have no trouble getting well over 200K miles on a clutch (currently at 287K on the TDI).

As far as drag racing goes, I'm assuming I'd be building a bracket-racing car and while I'm pretty good with a stick, I don't think there's any way I could beat the consistency of an automatic when matching your dial-in number is critical.

Jaynen wrote: For me it comes down to repairs cost. Most cars seem to have to start worrying about transmission issues 100,000 miles+ clutches are a lot easier a wear item

The fluid in the BMW automatics is so expensive that the DEALERSHIPS strain and re-use it if they have to do internal transmission service.

Ian F wrote: Speed doesn't mean as much for us. It's more about the overall package and hands-on enjoyment of the car. It's why we have old Triumphs and Volvo's. It's why the g/f bought her MCS in '03 and sold the M3. If budget be damned and I'm building a the fastest race car possible and an auto-box is faster, then sure - I'll get it. But for a street car I still want to shift for myself most of the time. If I were buildign a drag car, you're damn straight it would be an automatic.

Maybe it's because I've only driven a manual for 3-4 years, but it seems like the primary benefit of manuals in my mind is being able to choose which gear you're in and increased efficiency. I find the pedal dancing in a manual to be a distraction. If I can get the gear choice and efficiency without the clutch pedal, I'll gladly take it.

Ian F wrote:

Anti-stance wrote:

scardeal wrote: Honestly, if paddle shifters are faster, I'll take it. I don't care if it's got a torque-converter or a DSG or PDK or SMG. So long as it'll blip on downshifts and is faster than the manual, I'll take it.

Thats my thinking.

Speed doesn't mean as much for us. It's more about the overall package and hands-on enjoyment of the car. It's why we have old Triumphs and Volvo's. It's why the g/f bought her MCS in '03 and sold the M3. If budget be damned and I'm building a the fastest race car possible and an auto-box is faster, then sure - I'll get it. But for a street car I still want to shift for myself most of the time. If I were buildign a drag car, you're damn straight it would be an automatic.

Meh, I have driven the new V8 M3s with a DCT, and it's a brilliant transmission.

But I understand the desire to "be a man" by pronouncing the desire "row my own gears."

I prefer to do my best Vin Diesel impression.

Shifting... Not.. Yea.

If I'm looking for the lowest possible lap time, sure I'd take a SMG, DCT, or whichever trans made me the fastest.

For 99.9% of my driving I prefer 3 pedals as it gives me the most communication with the vehicle. I want to be totally immersed in the driving experience, and flappy-paddle shifters don't give me the same feeling of involvement that a traditional manual transmission does.

Besides, anyone can look / feel like a pro with an automated box. It takes practice and skill to drive a manual properly (rev-match, heel + toe, becoming perfectly smooth when changing gears, etc.) I enjoy the feeling of accomplishment when I've done it "just right". This is lost when everything is done for you.

This is why I'd rather have a "twitchy" old 911 than a new one. This is also way I don't pine for any new Ferrari, as none of them have a third pedal. This is also why I don't have any interest in ever owning a GTR.

To each his or her own, but for me, I'll shift myself.

Joe Gearin wrote: For what it's worth, the new M5 will come with a revised transmission that is said to be much improved over the SMG transmissions. To me, the SMG absolutely ruined the M5 and M6. I never thought I could hate a car with 500hp, but I have no love for those at all. Technological overkill.

The SMGs sucked, plain and simple. BMW's newer DSG units are an order of magnitude better. (I've driven both back-to-back on and off the track)

I prefer my sports cars to have a clutch pedal, but I'd choose a good DSG for my big luxury sedan every time. The dual-clutch gearbox is so much more visceral than a standard automatic, but is so much less tedious than a manual in traffic and when sharing the driving with a spouse.

z31maniac wrote: Meh, I have driven the new V8 M3s with a DCT, and it's a brilliant transmission. But I understand the desire to "be a man" by pronouncing the desire "row my own gears."

I don't doubt it is, but like I said - the '97 M3 was sold because the car wasn't really that much fun as a street car compared to the MINI. I don't see how adding more HP and a faster shifting transmission would change that feeling after the stop-light novelty wore off.

Manliness? I drive a diesel station wagon... and happily drove around in a Cooper convertible with the top down and Italian opera blaring away... nobody has ever accused me of trying to look "manly." However, I will admit that my truck purchase of a manual was somewhat along those lines - as much from the g/f than me. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that Dodge manuals are worse than their automatics... My next truck will almost certainly be an auto.

We really debated the manual vs. automatic when shopping for the 850. All of our cars are sticks and once in awhile shifting in the MINI really bothers my g/f's back.

z31maniac wrote: Meh, I have driven the new V8 M3s with a DCT, and it's a brilliant transmission. But I understand the desire to "be a man" by pronouncing the desire "row my own gears."

I honestly believe thats what it boils down to most of the time. There is a fear that your testicles will be revoked for driving a flappy paddle or admitting that you would. Oh and we also wouldn't want to offend Jeremy Clarkson either.

I know its fun to drive a manual transmission, but in traffic or towing I like an auto, on track I want control of what gear I am in. I don't need to tell people in the paddock that I am heel-toeing or double clutching and I am sure most don't care as much as what lap times you are doing or what cars you are playing with in your DE group.

I've driven a few of the new BMW autos, and they aren't bad considering. I'd still rather have a stick, but theirs work pretty well.

What doesn't work well is the steering feel. It was absolutely horrible. My dad just bought a new 3 series, and I can't describe how bad it feels, very light, and dare i say it, almost vague feeling (it's a very nice car otherwise though). I also test drove a new 5 series, and it was similar. They have a new varible assist system, and it doesn't work very well.

His '03 5 series feels like a sports car in comparison, where the new car feels like a Camry. And don't get me started on what you have to do to actually start or stop it. It has a "procedure". I want to turn a key and go, not go through a checklist. To be fair though, our sons new Explorer is similar.

The 5 is sitting in my garage right now, and I keep thinking how nice it is. The newer BMW's, I really have no desire to have one, they are much too appliance like. Where has the involvement gone? The new M5 auto only offering only reinforces this belief.

racerdave600 wrote: I've driven a few of the new BMW autos, and they aren't bad considering. I'd still rather have a stick, but theirs work pretty well. What doesn't work well is the steering feel. It was absolutely horrible. My dad just bought a new 3 series, and I can't describe how bad it feels, very light, and dare i say it, almost vague feeling (it's a very nice car otherwise though). I also test drove a new 5 series, and it was similar. They have a new varible assist system, and it doesn't work very well.

Wow, a BMW with bad steering? Make that the end of two eras.