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drainoil
drainoil HalfDork
6/30/16 1:14 p.m.
dean1484 wrote: Is there an additive that you can use to negate some of the issues that people are having with ethanol.

STA-BIL has made a product for several years for this. I believe Lucas Oil also has a product,and probably a few others. Most larger marine retailers will advertise and/or sell this type of product.

In my own experience, using ethanol in my older machinery hasn't produced any bad results. The key to this I think is not letting the ethanol blended gas sit in the tank unused for a certain period of time. I'm no scientist but I think if you have a petroleum product mixed with a non petroleum product, such as ethanol, and if it sits unused for a certain period of time, scientific stuff starts to take place that may not be good. With that possibly flawed theory engrained in my mind, I burn through each tank of ethanol blended fuel so I'm almost empty, then don't refuel again until I know I'm going to burn most or all of what I put in the tank. Some may see this method as a pita, but its worked for me for many years.

Over 10 years ago my uncle took two clear Mason jars. Filled one with pure gasoline, 87 octane. Filled the other with 87 octane but with a 10% ethanol blend. He set them on a shelf in his shed and visually checked them every few days. After about 30 days, the one with 100% gas, still looked the same. However the one with the ethanol blend started to separate and almost looked like it was turning into a varnish. I didn't see this myself but he has told the story over and over many times. Being this was over 10 years ago, maybe the formulation/blends have changed so this would not happen nowadays?

rslifkin
rslifkin HalfDork
6/30/16 1:20 p.m.

The biggest issue with storing ethanol fuels is moisture. They'll absorb water harmlessly up to a point. But if you store them in a condensation prone environment for long enough, they'll absorb enough water to cause separation, at which point the tank has to be drained and the fuel is no good.

FWIW, CT has had mandatory E10 since 2004. The family boat (aluminum tanks) has been drinking it since then. Only issues in 12 years have been a few old rubber fuel lines needing replacement as they weren't alcohol rated and started to collapse internally. When it's put away for the winter, the tanks are filled and get Sta-bil added (usually just the regular red version). It's usually 8 - 9 months or so before the tanks are drawn down to somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 full and fresh fuel is added.

HiTempguy
HiTempguy PowerDork
6/30/16 1:35 p.m.
aircooled wrote: Or even fuel filters:

Exactly.

rslifkin wrote: The biggest issue with storing ethanol fuels is moisture. They'll absorb water harmlessly up to a point. But if you store them in a condensation prone environment for long enough, they'll absorb enough water to cause separation, at which point the tank has to be drained and the fuel is no good.

If the fuel is in a sealed container, moisture can't get in, no matter how "condensation prone" the environment is. The amount of moisture a barrel will suck out of the headspace of the barrel, even with multiple opening and closings, is minimal.

So basically, make sure your (general your, not you specifically) barrels are sealed. I file this under the heading of "yea, duh", as ALL fuels are negatively effected if left open to the general environment.

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/30/16 1:36 p.m.

I have never had any issues with it. I don't even know what they are. In fact I have never met anyone that has had an issue. Where I notice a difference is in the summer versus winter blends and that really is just a MPG issue not really a running issue and furthermore I am betting that is a external temperature issue not a fuel issue. (warming up the car for the driver and the car taking longer to warm up to operating temp)

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 PowerDork
6/30/16 1:37 p.m.
iceracer wrote:
1988RedT2 wrote: Best option is to throw the bums out come November. VOTE!
To bad we don't vote for the EPA.

While this is certainly true, if you will examine the candidate's views on the EPA and big government trampling individual rights, you will find them to be in nearly perfect ideological opposition on this issue.

rslifkin
rslifkin HalfDork
6/30/16 1:39 p.m.

Summer vs winter fuel can definitely be a running issue sometimes. A few times, I've gone somewhere colder with the Jeep with a tank full of summer fuel right around cutover time. After a 20* night, it cranks for a good 4 - 5 seconds in the morning before it even starts to fire and then takes a couple seconds to get to a steady idle with all 8 firing happily.

After that, it runs fine. If the engine is less than stone cold or it's at those temps with a tank full of winter blend, it fires up just fine like it's a warm summer day. It has to be solidly below 0* F for it to start needing to crank longer than a second or so with winter blend in the tank.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
6/30/16 1:45 p.m.

In reply to rslifkin:

All the time. The seasonal fuels plus the regional fuels that are allowed are a major PITA. It would be great if the country could have a single fuel standard. Be good for air quality and fuel economy, as well as cheaper at the pump (since it's ONE blend for summer, one for winter, anywhere)

foxtrapper
foxtrapper UltimaDork
6/30/16 2:12 p.m.
drainoil wrote: Over 10 years ago my uncle took two clear Mason jars. Filled one with pure gasoline, 87 octane. Filled the other with 87 octane but with a 10% ethanol blend. He set them on a shelf in his shed and visually checked them every few days. After about 30 days, the one with 100% gas, still looked the same. However the one with the ethanol blend started to separate and almost looked like it was turning into a varnish. I didn't see this myself but he has told the story over and over many times. Being this was over 10 years ago, maybe the formulation/blends have changed so this would not happen nowadays?

It's called phase separation and it's a real phenomena. As a mason jar (with it's lid on) is a very sealed container I do have my doubts about the 10% ethanol blend turning into varnish stored this way.

I've long observed problems with ethanol gasoline stored in plastic gas cans that are stored outside where condensation and especially rain can get on them. Mostly the fuel becoming a non fuel that no longer wants to burn. Be that strange evaporation of high volatiles or an equally strange water absorption that almost never results in water in the bottom of the gas can. It is not a problem with diesel fuel stored in plastic jugs left outside in the rain and condensation. It is also almost never a problem with gasoline stored in plastic jugs that are protected from rain and condensation.

While I see little problem with rubber fuel lines and such from ethanol content, I have seen it and experienced it. The latest being an old Walbro fuel pump diaphragm turning into dissolved goo.

Much more prevalent in my experience is the no-start, frequently from a greenish yellow buildup in the carburetor bowl and jets. It's much more common in equipment stored outside with gasoline left in the bowl. If the build up is in the goo stage, it comes out easily enough. If the buildup has solidified, it's much more difficult to remove and requires mechanical removal. I've not yet found a solvent that will dissolve it once it has solidified. I am assuming it goes from goo to solid, but I do not know that for a fact.

There is sometimes a similar buildup that reduces the diameter of the jets. This is almost invariably yellow in color, which makes it darn hard to see on a brass jet. But, measure the size and you can pick it up. It's frequently found in older outboards around here, and results in a very lean burn with all the problems that creates. In fact it's those problems that will tend to bring the engine in. Inspecting and measuring the jets can reveal this stuff. I have also seen this in power equipment stored outside, but not as much as I have with outboards. It may well be a current additive though.

There is a cyclical aspect of these problems, and I don't just mean seasonal. Yes, the lawnmowers not starting is a spring time thing. But that's owed to when everyone gets around to trying to start it. Instead, I'm talking about something showing up across the board. This past spring there was quite a rash of small equipment not starting and carburetors being gummy, in spite of being put away dry. Stores ran out of replacement filler necks for plastic gas cans for a while too, they were all suddenly cracking. There was also the time several years ago when all of the sudden many an aluminum carburetor bowls started seeping. Something had changed with the gasoline or additives, creating new and exciting problems.

The product we call gasoline has changed substantially over the years. Refilling gas cans reveals just how much this stuff we call gasoline has changed. There are hardly any fumes. About 6-8 years ago when I got the latest Spitfire it came with a tank full of gasoline from the mid 1980's. That was the last time the car had been run and it had been stored inside with that stuff in the tank. When I popped the cap to sniff to see if it smelled burnable it just about bowled me over with the fumes. I'd forgotten how pungent gasoline used to be. That 20+ year old gasoline ran the engine just fine. I regret not having siphoned a little off to store for posterity.

I'm not anti ethanol. But I cannot say I have never seen or experienced any problems with it, or with a few of the other properties of modern gasoline.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/30/16 4:51 p.m.

FWIW, my 1972 Ford said that "gasohol" (E10) was perfectly fine as a motor fuel.

My mother had me pump the gas for her car since about 1985 and I don't remember the fuel pumps ever NOT saying "10% ethanol added".

This is why I laugh at the sky-is-falling OMG E10 people. We've been running E10 for, quite literally, decades. The horrible things that people claim happen simply... don't.

Whether it makes sense or not from a clean-air perspective or a renewable-fuels perspective are two separate matters.

The conspiracy theorist in me notes that gasoline smells way different than I remember, and it doesn't evaporate nearly as quickly as it used to, and so probably the push for more and more ethanol is as an octane enhancer because of the nice volatiles are too hard to come by anymore. E10 is Victory Gin in other words.

Rufledt
Rufledt UltraDork
6/30/16 5:37 p.m.

Hey people, nobody is answering the REALLY important question here: Exacly how much can I crank up the boost with the new fuel?

iceracer
iceracer PowerDork
6/30/16 5:52 p.m.
1988RedT2 wrote:
iceracer wrote:
1988RedT2 wrote: Best option is to throw the bums out come November. VOTE!
To bad we don't vote for the EPA.
While this is certainly true, if you will examine the candidate's views on the EPA and big government trampling individual rights, you will find them to be in nearly perfect ideological opposition on this issue.

Oh My ! Be sure to vote in November.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/30/16 5:56 p.m.
Rufledt wrote: Hey people, nobody is answering the REALLY important question here: Exacly how much can I crank up the boost with the new fuel?

87 is 87, 93 is 93, no matter if you get it with straight gasoline or an ethanol/kerosene blend.

Although I understand that Mazda made special rotary race fuel that was a blend of high volatiles and kerosene. Octane is octane but the actual burn characteristics are a different story, separate from octane.

iceracer
iceracer PowerDork
6/30/16 6:02 p.m.

In reply to Knurled: Back in the old days you could certainly smell the gasoline when it went bad and an engine would not run on it let alone start. Interesting that modern gas doesn't do that. I couldn't leave old gas 7/8 months in my snow blower like I do now.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/30/16 6:33 p.m.

In reply to iceracer:

I was thinking that my RX-7's fuel injectors may have clogged from sitting for six months, but I'm thinking more that the computer got corrupted somehow since while gummed injectors would explain a hard start condition, it doesn't explain a consistent, repeatable hiccup at ~7200rpm and good power up to that point and beyond to over 9000rpm(asterisk).

I should probably datalog that and post it to msextra.com along with a datalog from before the car sat (same tune).

(asterisk) Yes, OVER 9000.

Also, I have successfully salvaged E10 from a car that sat for seven years and drove on it just fine. More recently, we acquired an S10 Blazer that sat for six years. With a fresh battery, it started just fine on the old gasoline. And this is with the CFI spider injection setup that is ultra finicky.

Anecdotes aren't data, but the Internet would have you believe that the E10 would have turned the fuel into a vile sludge that destroyed any gaskets, O-rings, and other materials... Not happening!

More likely, I can believe that it is a convenient scapegoat for old broke-ass equipment being broke-ass, since it was good 15 years ago so it should still be good today.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/30/16 6:46 p.m.

But modern gas CAN do that, if you don't have a functioning evaporative emissions system. I have drained some extremely vile substances from fuel tanks. Chevette fuel tank that was full when parked, had 1/3rd tank of a orange-brown crud that our oilburning furnace didn't even like very much. No workable evap system.

The fun part was trying to source a Chevette fuel tank and sending unit (the old one was trashed by the goo) and then modifying it for the kitcar it was installed in. Filler neck had to be moved. The parts supplier hung up on us when we called, thought we were pranking him

This isn't an E10 problem as much as it is just a general fuel evaporating problem. If the fuel system has a modern, functional evaporative emissions system, the fuel system won't "breathe" and evaporate off. That is kinda the point, after all. And when it isn't allowed to evaporate out, the fuel doesn't "turn to varnish". Varnish is just the bits that are left after all the aromatics leave the party.

Hybrids and ultra-hybrids like the Volt have extremely sealed fuel systems for just this reason. If refueling events might be a year apart, you make sure that ALL of the fuel stays in the fuel system!

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
6/30/16 7:18 p.m.
Rufledt wrote: Hey people, nobody is answering the REALLY important question here: Exacly how much can I crank up the boost with the new fuel?

E85 is 105 octane.

markwemple
markwemple SuperDork
6/30/16 7:39 p.m.

The corn industry has waaaaaaay toouch influence. This will increased dino consumption and destroy our cars. Effe the corn industry

BrokenYugo
BrokenYugo UltimaDork
6/30/16 7:40 p.m.

In reply to Knurled:

The modern gas is actually much more volatile than the old stuff, hence all the vapor lock problems in old carbed cars. Though a single layer wrap of foil backed foam insulation tape and then foil tape over that on the hard lines in the engine bay seems to solve that in my limited experience. Foil tape on the carb bowl helps with the heat soak.

kb58
kb58 Dork
6/30/16 8:08 p.m.
Appleseed wrote:
Rufledt wrote: Hey people, nobody is answering the REALLY important question here: Exacly how much can I crank up the boost with the new fuel?
E85 is 105 octane.

There's actually a fair bit of debate about the actual octane value. The latest I saw was more like 95-ish, which was pretty disappointing if true since I'm running a turbo as well.

rslifkin
rslifkin HalfDork
6/30/16 8:30 p.m.
kb58 wrote: There's actually a fair bit of debate about the actual octane value. The latest I saw was more like 95-ish, which was pretty disappointing if true since I'm running a turbo as well.

Even at the same octane, E85 will still let you run a little more boost, as you're feeding a lot more fuel, which gives some cooling effect to the intake charge.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/30/16 8:31 p.m.
kb58 wrote:
Appleseed wrote:
Rufledt wrote: Hey people, nobody is answering the REALLY important question here: Exacly how much can I crank up the boost with the new fuel?
E85 is 105 octane.
There's actually a fair bit of debate about the actual octane value. The latest I saw was more like 95-ish, which was pretty disappointing if true since I'm running a turbo as well.

I've seen people make 10% more power on E85 than C16 in highly turbocharged, crappy combustion chamber applications. Given that, I have grave doubts about it being only 95 octane.

E85 isn't gasoline. It is ethanol that has been denatured with 15% gasoline so you can't drink it.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
7/1/16 7:24 a.m.
markwemple wrote: The corn industry has waaaaaaay toouch influence. This will increased dino consumption and destroy our cars. Effe the corn industry

That's how I see it. We need more bio fuel from energy rich plants like sugar cane and sugar beets. But the corn industry has figured out how to tax the alcohol based on the source.

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
7/1/16 7:32 a.m.
Knurled wrote:
kb58 wrote:
Appleseed wrote:
Rufledt wrote: Hey people, nobody is answering the REALLY important question here: Exacly how much can I crank up the boost with the new fuel?
E85 is 105 octane.
There's actually a fair bit of debate about the actual octane value. The latest I saw was more like 95-ish, which was pretty disappointing if true since I'm running a turbo as well.
I've seen people make 10% more power on E85 than C16 in highly turbocharged, crappy combustion chamber applications. Given that, I have grave doubts about it being only 95 octane. E85 isn't gasoline. It is ethanol that has been denatured with 15% gasoline so you can't drink it.

that's kind of an amusing way of putting it- I'm sure people have thought about trying.

In terms of octane rating, Ethanol by itself has a RON of 107 (MON of 89, so a PON of 98) So it's not totally out of question that the PON of E85 could be 95.

The real question- how much does it really change- AND the physical properties of the ethanol changes knock sensitivity without any octane change. So in the end- for boosted engines, the effective change is probably more related to the RON of 107.

Now the E10 (or E15) fuels- they are specifically blended to match the octane on the pump.

That being said- the cooling effect of ethanol can be observed even at E10- the lower NOx emissions that I've seen can only be explained by that. It's not huge, but noticeable.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
7/1/16 7:38 a.m.

Actually...you can drink it. You shouldn't. But you can.

iceracer
iceracer PowerDork
7/1/16 9:11 a.m.

New ethanol source.

A plant is starting up to use the whey from the FAGE yogurt plant to produce ethanol and animal feed.

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