EV Infrastructure

jmabarone said:

A dream family fleet for me would be a 15 passenger Ford Transit and a single cab pickup EV.  Short commute to work for me and a short trips around to Lowes or the metal yard would make an EV work.  That said, there is little to no EV infrastructure in my area.  It would all have to be at home charging.  

You don't need EV infrastructure where you live. You need it where you're going :) This is one of those things that people often forget, because they think of ICE vehicles that have to be refueled everywhere.

I've never used a charging station that was less than 100 miles from my house.

jmabarone said:

 and a single cab pickup EV. 

Definitely look at the truck in my original post. sofa king cool!

Great conversation so far.

tuna55 said:

So that's the rub. That last sentence isn't any more true than it is for any other vehicle.

It's true enough that GM tells you not to park your Bolt inside.

That said, it's specifically a Bolt problem, not a general EV problem.

Keith Tanner said:

Well, Teslas use Tesla for both Level 2 (slow) and Level 3 (fast) charging. The reason there's a specific Tesla connector is because there wasn't really a valid standard when they started rolling out Superchargers so they had to make their own and nobody else has decided to adopt it.

All EVs (including Teslas with an adapter that's included with the car) use J1772 for Level 2. Basically, Level 2 is not a problem.

Most EVs that are not Teslas use CCS for Level 3 charging. Adapters to allow Teslas to use CCS are appearing, and some new Superchargers are being set up to provide both CCS and Tesla. In Europe, Superchargers are CCS. There are some Supercharger to CCS adapters out there as well, I believe. So they're starting to play well together.

A few EVs use CHAdeMO, but it's walking dead IMO.

Basically, J1772 and CCS are looking to be the standard going forward and there's going to be some crossover to the Tesla standard as well.

I thought there were a couple more standards then that. Learn something new every day.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

tuna55 said:

So that's the rub. That last sentence isn't any more true than it is for any other vehicle.

It's true enough that GM tells you not to park your Bolt inside.

That said, it's specifically a Bolt problem, not a general EV problem.

 

They don't, though. I own one. 

tuna55 said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

tuna55 said:

So that's the rub. That last sentence isn't any more true than it is for any other vehicle.

It's true enough that GM tells you not to park your Bolt inside.

That said, it's specifically a Bolt problem, not a general EV problem.

 

They don't, though. I own one. 

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/chevrolet-bolt-evs-should-be-parked-outdoors-fire-risk-a9383743446/

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

tuna55 said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

tuna55 said:

So that's the rub. That last sentence isn't any more true than it is for any other vehicle.

It's true enough that GM tells you not to park your Bolt inside.

That said, it's specifically a Bolt problem, not a general EV problem.

 

They don't, though. I own one. 

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/chevrolet-bolt-evs-should-be-parked-outdoors-fire-risk-a9383743446/

That is not what gm or the nhtsa have told me through official communication. 

I don't bring this up because I am anti-EV or anti-Bolt, but I did see a sign on a parking garage downtown about two weeks ago that said something to the effect of "No Chevy Bolts Allowed on the Premises Due to something-something NHTSA".  That's a garage that offers EV charging stations as an amenity.

GM did release a software patch in December that is supposed to reduce the battery charging process to 80% of capacity which then removes the requirement to not charge overnight and park outdoors.  The sign at the parking garage didn't make any exception for those that had the software patch installed.

I don't really think it's that big of a deal, in the grand scheme of things, though.  Cars have had recalls for dangerous things for decades and any new technology is going to have pitfalls as we get it all worked out.  Frankly, if we all sat around and waited for it to be "perfect" before it could be sold, we'd pretty much never make any progress towards anything. 

Mazda had a recall for spiders in the gas tanks that could cause fires. 

Correction, TWO recalls. 

Stuff happens. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Certainly EV's have maintenance cost throughout their lifetime. Less parts doesn't equal zero issues. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

For people whose primary use is commuting or local trips, I would beg to differ. It seems charging at home works well for this use case. My folks have a Bolt and charge it at home 95+% of the time. I also have a neighbor with a Kia EV who charges it at home, and reports that he is very pleased with it for his use.

On that matter, what percentage of trips are long-distance road trips versus local commutes or errand-running? I'd guess massively more of the latter, but if you want to take longer trips outside the local area, charging infrastructure is obviously still a concern. 

I bring it up because I was discussing the possibility of switching to EV a few months ago, and my knee-jerk reaction was, "But what do I do when I need to go more than 80/150/200 miles on a charge (depending on vehicle being discussed) and the response was, "Realistically, how often are you doing that compared to a 5-25 mile local hop?" and once I really thought about it, probably somewhere between a few times a year and several dozen times a year versus nearly every day for shorter trip.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

tuna55 said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

tuna55 said:

So that's the rub. That last sentence isn't any more true than it is for any other vehicle.

It's true enough that GM tells you not to park your Bolt inside.

That said, it's specifically a Bolt problem, not a general EV problem.

 

They don't, though. I own one. 

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/chevrolet-bolt-evs-should-be-parked-outdoors-fire-risk-a9383743446/

Note the date. The article was written prior to the recall that involved gm replacing all the Bolt battery packs. The recall mentioned in the article was a software "fix" that wasn't enough and limited use of the full pack range. With all Bolts through 2022 being eligible for a new pack, once that new pack is installed the fire risk should be abated. Certainly they are no longer recommending parking outside and away from other cars once the battery replacement has been performed. 

What is the best Android app to see the local charging stations ?

Thanks

yupididit said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Certainly EV's have maintenance cost throughout their lifetime. Less parts doesn't equal zero issues. 

That's true not only for EV's but ICE as well.   
            The issue with maintenance is typically a function of required work when the warranty is over. I've been very blessed in that regard. Only one car I've owned disappointed me .  A Buick Rivera.  Replaced with a Vega GT which was a great car, fantastic car. But when I sold it the new owner had nothing but trouble.  I digress 

        Nobody I know who owns a Tesla is unhappy with it. While they may not be perfect their owners seem to praise them 

wae said:

I don't bring this up because I am anti-EV or anti-Bolt, but I did see a sign on a parking garage downtown about two weeks ago that said something to the effect of "No Chevy Bolts Allowed on the Premises Due to something-something NHTSA".  That's a garage that offers EV charging stations as an amenity.

GM did release a software patch in December that is supposed to reduce the battery charging process to 80% of capacity which then removes the requirement to not charge overnight and park outdoors.  The sign at the parking garage didn't make any exception for those that had the software patch installed.

I don't really think it's that big of a deal, in the grand scheme of things, though.  Cars have had recalls for dangerous things for decades and any new technology is going to have pitfalls as we get it all worked out.  Frankly, if we all sat around and waited for it to be "perfect" before it could be sold, we'd pretty much never make any progress towards anything. 

Well thought out. But I'm sure by now most Bolts have had the new programming as well as the replacement battery.   Sometimes signs are left up long past their need.  I mean if it was anything other than a piece of cardboard scrawled with a magic marker it likely cost a lot of money to make. 

Per this article (dated 8 days ago), the recall has fixed around half of the worst Bolts, with only 1% of the less-dangerous recalled ones fixed.  It is definitely still an issue in the general market:  https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1135727_chevy-bolt-ev-battery-recall-update-nearly-half-have-been-remedied

However, to reiterate what I said before, it is a problem with a single, specific model of EV, not with EVs in general.

The important takeaway is to reinforce what Keith said earlier.  EVs are not necessarily any more or less of a fire risk than a gas car, but the situations in which they might be a fire risk are different.  A shut down gas-engined car sitting in a garage is basically inert.  An EV is not necessarily the same, especially if it's charging.  Different behaviour, different things to think about.

californiamilleghia said:

What is the best Android app to see the local charging stations ?

Thanks

PlugShare is a good one. If you're looking at planning trips, A Better Trip Planner gets good reports. 

In reply to ae86andkp61 (Forum Supporter) :

You're responding to me, but I'm not sure exactly what you're responding to. I'll make a guess based on your comments. 

Charging infrastructure is important if you're going to be away from your home base. It's not important to you near your home base, as it's unlikely you'll need it. You'll need high speed charging ability if you're mid-journey, and access to Level 2 charging for long stops like overnight. Note that not all EVs can accept very high speed charging, The Bolt can do 50 kW, the Taycan 270. Obviously, this will have an effect on a mid-trip stop.

All the studies I've seen show that a very high percentage of charging is done at home. 80% is a number quoted by the DOE, and I suspect that's on the low side for a modern longer range EV. But it's all about averages. Speaking of which, Americans drive an average of 31 miles per day.

There is the case of people who cannot (or choose not to) charge at home. Those people rely on local chargers that are usually mid-speed (50-75 kW) during errands or a high speed for a short visit. Tesla actually has an "urban Supercharger" that has the lower power level. If your car charges too quickly, you can't get anything else done :)

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

The important takeaway is to reinforce what Keith said earlier.  EVs are not necessarily any more or less of a fire risk than a gas car, but the situations in which they might be a fire risk are different.  A shut down gas-engined car sitting in a garage is basically inert.  An EV is not necessarily the same, especially if it's charging.  Different behaviour, different things to think about.

Just a couple of months ago, Hyundai/Kia told half a million ICE owners to park outside for fire risk related to the ABS system.

They've had over 3.5 million ICE vehicles recalled for fire risk in the last couple of years, and that's just from one car maker (or two that use the same parts if you want to get picky).

Also, the battery fires are not just a GM/Bolt thing. They're a supplier thing (like many of the issues that Hyundai/Kia are having above). LG Chem batteries in vehicles from multiple makes/models have had issues with "thermal events" that were common enough to justify recalls.

Aging Wheels on YouTube recently put out a video about a making a 1200 mile road trip in a Hyundai Ioniq 5 EV that was pretty interesting.  They had little trouble with wait times at charging stations; it turns out the Ioniq charges very quickly, and I imagine this is going to be the case with most EVs over the next few years.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Vm_ASm2zfs

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Per this article (dated 8 days ago), the recall has fixed around half of the worst Bolts, with only 1% of the less-dangerous recalled ones fixed.  It is definitely still an issue in the general market:  https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1135727_chevy-bolt-ev-battery-recall-update-nearly-half-have-been-remedied

However, to reiterate what I said before, it is a problem with a single, specific model of EV, not with EVs in general.

The important takeaway is to reinforce what Keith said earlier.  EVs are not necessarily any more or less of a fire risk than a gas car, but the situations in which they might be a fire risk are different.  A shut down gas-engined car sitting in a garage is basically inert.  An EV is not necessarily the same, especially if it's charging.  Different behaviour, different things to think about.

 

Thanks for the update.   However modern ICE cars are not dormant when shut down. There are still live CIRCUITS that are potential ignition sources.   Only one failure away from fire.   Look at the infamous Ford Pinto. It wasn't that it had a gas tank or that the gas tank was in the rear.  It was a combination of wiring issues that triggered those fires.  
    The Pinto was rudimentary with regard to potential issues compared to modern cars. And not just in terms of accidents.  

A timely article, related to this discussion.

Public EV charging still sucks but Ford is working to fix it

The Pinto's problem was the gas tanks were punctured by the bumper when hit from the rear.

in every case of ICE cars being recalled for fires that I know of, it was electrical issues that caused them, not the gasoline.

As for fire departments and EV's, the problem lies in the MASSIVE amount of water it takes to put out a battery fire.  About 28,000 gals compared to less than 500 for an ICE car.  Also, if you get in a wreck in your EV, the fire department has to have special equipment to make sure your vehicle is not a shock hazard.  So what happens when you either try to step out of your car, or a good samaritan approaches your car shortly after an accident?

I hear Tesla is using cheaper, shorter range batteries in some cars now because of the cost of Lithium.

Robbie (Forum Supporter) said:

 ...conclude that infastructure isn't currently holding EVs back. 

... lots of imaginary ones. 

Witness the past two pages of this thread, then extrapolate for a far reduced automotive knowledge base among the general populace as compared with this forum, and it's plain that you have exactly the right point above.

It's so easy to sow discord and discontent without any real substance that a huge percentage of TV personalities and politicians stake their entire careers off of the idea.

Keith Tanner said:

 

You don't need EV infrastructure where you live. You need it where you're going :) This is one of those things that people often forget, because they think of ICE vehicles that have to be refueled everywhere.

I've never used a charging station that was less than 100 miles from my house.

Absolutely agree, just commenting on that the infrastructure in my area (rural SW Virginia, big surprise).  

My BIL has a Model X.  They also have an Odyssey for when they need to go out of range.  They will plan their lodging based on where they can find chargers if they can take the Tesla.