EV Minivan - why isn't there one (or many) now or planned??

93EXCivic said:

In reply to twowheeled :

Amen. That is why I love my Element. The side folding seats are the single best thing ever fitted to a car. Mine lives as a three seater.

I miss my element -  except for those back seats. Side foldaway is fine, but they're some of the least comfortable seats I've had on any vehicle. A friend threw his out, took a piece of plywood and a couple of overcentering clamps, mounted up a pair of BMW buckets and is much happier. He can remove the seats more quickly than he could the stock ones as well.  

The soccermom stereotype is a failure in imagination. They can be made plenty sporty  

If having 2 rows of fold flat storage is the priority, then I think the vacant space created by not having an engine, transmission, exhaust system, fuel system, and driveshaft/rear dif would leave enough space for batteries. That might be fine for an OEM looking to electrify an existing platform, but it's not ideal for a brand new design.

The typical "skateboard" approach would probably be preferred for any new platform development. It will handle better, and be much more flexible (cheaper and easier to build) for an OEM. That type of platform would open up new storage and packaging possibilities too. The 3rd row folding flat would probably stay for sure since there's nothing behind the rear axle anyway. IF the 2nd row couldn't be designed to fold flat, at least the storage cubbies under the 2nd row seats would be replaced by a "frunk" that would be even easier to store things in.

I really don't get the "minivan = soccer-mom" thing...  Every soccer-mom I know drives a SUV.  The only mom I know with a minivan had her husband build out the rear cargo area for camping. She is one of my mountain bike teammates. 

Locating batteries to the "frunk" area might interfere with the engineered crumple zones. And given how these batteries can run-away when on fire, placing them in an impact zone might not be a good idea.

STM317 said:

If having 2 rows of fold flat storage is the priority, then I think the vacant space created by not having an engine, transmission, exhaust system, fuel system, and driveshaft/rear dif would leave enough space for batteries. That might be fine for an OEM looking to electrify an existing platform, but it's not ideal for a brand new design.

The typical "skateboard" approach would probably be preferred for any new platform development. It will handle better, and be much more flexible (cheaper and easier to build) for an OEM. That type of platform would open up new storage and packaging possibilities too. The 3rd row folding flat would probably stay for sure since there's nothing behind the rear axle anyway. IF the 2nd row couldn't be designed to fold flat, at least the storage cubbies under the 2nd row seats would be replaced by a "frunk" that would be even easier to store things in.

I really enjoy having the ability to put a 4x8 sheet inside the minivan. I'd rather the batteries live under the hood instead of getting a frunk.

Chances that your mini-van would be used like a pickup truck when your old pickup decides to not start when leaving for the home improvement store = 100% 

In reply to tuna55 :

I mean even if you lose the second row stow-n-go to batteries, you could still put the 4x8 plywood in, just have to remove the seats first. It's not that hard, I've done it many times on the PacHy

I doubt the batteries will go in the front end, don't want them to be in the crumple zone. 

Erich said:

In reply to tuna55 :

I mean even if you lose the second row stow-n-go to batteries, you could still put the 4x8 plywood in, just have to remove the seats first. It's not that hard, I've done it many times on the PacHy

I doubt the batteries will go in the front end, don't want them to be in the crumple zone. 

Maybe you're right about the crumple zone. I am not sure.

Honestly, having lived with stow n' go for close to a decade, I would hesitate to replace the pacifica with a vehicle which did not have such a device. Removing the seats is a pain, and has to be done ahead of time, and my wife and kids won't be able to it themselves.

tuna55 said:

 

Honestly, having lived with stow n' go for close to a decade, I would hesitate to replace the pacifica with a vehicle which did not have such a device. Removing the seats is a pain, and has to be done ahead of time, and my wife and kids won't be able to it themselves.

If I were buying a minivan, this would be a huge selling point for me.  I had an Odyssey and removing the middle seats was a gigantic pain in the ass.

Once I realized how stupid cheap it is to have plywood delivered I just do that.  Don't even have to go to the store.

tuna55 said:

STM317 said:

If having 2 rows of fold flat storage is the priority, then I think the vacant space created by not having an engine, transmission, exhaust system, fuel system, and driveshaft/rear dif would leave enough space for batteries. That might be fine for an OEM looking to electrify an existing platform, but it's not ideal for a brand new design.

The typical "skateboard" approach would probably be preferred for any new platform development. It will handle better, and be much more flexible (cheaper and easier to build) for an OEM. That type of platform would open up new storage and packaging possibilities too. The 3rd row folding flat would probably stay for sure since there's nothing behind the rear axle anyway. IF the 2nd row couldn't be designed to fold flat, at least the storage cubbies under the 2nd row seats would be replaced by a "frunk" that would be even easier to store things in.

I really enjoy having the ability to put a 4x8 sheet inside the minivan. I'd rather the batteries live under the hood instead of getting a frunk.

I'd like to see companies start to implement a track between the captains seats to stand the 4x8s on their sides, and keep the frunk, but otherwise I agree with you. 

mtn said:

tuna55 said:

STM317 said:

If having 2 rows of fold flat storage is the priority, then I think the vacant space created by not having an engine, transmission, exhaust system, fuel system, and driveshaft/rear dif would leave enough space for batteries. That might be fine for an OEM looking to electrify an existing platform, but it's not ideal for a brand new design.

The typical "skateboard" approach would probably be preferred for any new platform development. It will handle better, and be much more flexible (cheaper and easier to build) for an OEM. That type of platform would open up new storage and packaging possibilities too. The 3rd row folding flat would probably stay for sure since there's nothing behind the rear axle anyway. IF the 2nd row couldn't be designed to fold flat, at least the storage cubbies under the 2nd row seats would be replaced by a "frunk" that would be even easier to store things in.

I really enjoy having the ability to put a 4x8 sheet inside the minivan. I'd rather the batteries live under the hood instead of getting a frunk.

I'd like to see companies start to implement a track between the captains seats to stand the 4x8s on their sides, and keep the frunk, but otherwise I agree with you. 

You could make such a think pretty easily I would imagine.

That said, there are other things that are long enough to utilize that space besides 4x8 plywood.  All kinds of furniture, gym equipment, bicycles, etc.  Fold down seats would be better, period.

I'm positive an OEM could figure out how to retain that feature with an EV though.

mtn said:

I'd like to see companies start to implement a track between the captains seats to stand the 4x8s on their sides, and keep the frunk, but otherwise I agree with you. 

I don't think our Ody is tall enough to do that, but if this were a possibility, sign me up.

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

93EXCivic said:

In reply to twowheeled :

Amen. That is why I love my Element. The side folding seats are the single best thing ever fitted to a car. Mine lives as a three seater.

I miss my element -  except for those back seats. Side foldaway is fine, but they're some of the least comfortable seats I've had on any vehicle. A friend threw his out, took a piece of plywood and a couple of overcentering clamps, mounted up a pair of BMW buckets and is much happier. He can remove the seats more quickly than he could the stock ones as well.

I never sit in them so I don't really care about comfort. It is just a car seat carrier really.

dj06482 (Forum Supporter) said:

I think the tough thing with a full EV is range - minivans get taken on long road trips a lot. I couldn't justify spending $50k for a full EV minivan that would struggle to make a long trip (we make the trek from CT to FL and back to CT pretty frequently).  

A hybrid would be great, and I'd love a plug-in option for in-town driving. If I were looking new right now, the hybrid Sienna and Pacifica would be at the top of my list.  However, we bought our '17 Odyssey for about 1/4 of what either of those goes for new, so I realistically won't be shopping the new market anytime soon.

Yep, I think this is the reason.  Well at least for me, I wouldn't buy an EV minivan because the high capacity people mover has to be able to road trip.  And yeah, I know ~300 miles is possible with modern battery packs, but with how few and far between chargers are in rural areas, I just don't think 300 miles is enough.  For a dedicated commuter?  Sure, just not with a minivan.  

I'll probably get shouted at for this, but I think that for an EV minivan to work as a mass-market device, it has to be able to go longer than the driver can.  Most people can realistically do 800-1000 miles in a day before they sleep, and I honestly think that an EV minivan needs to be able to do that before people will buy.  Drive all day, stop to pee at rest stops, then recharge at the hotel/destination.  

rothwem said:

 for an EV minivan to work as a mass-market device, it has to be able to go longer than the driver can.  Most people can realistically do 800-1000 miles in a day before they sleep, and I honestly think that an EV minivan needs to be able to do that before people will buy.  Drive all day, stop to pee at rest stops, then recharge at the hotel/destination.  

Holy berkeley

Nobody sane with kids is putting 1000 miles a day on their minivan.

This is just a bad take in so many ways.

1000 miles safely with no meaningful stops? That's over 13 hours of driving at a 75 mph average. That would be flat out illegal for a professional driver. You might as well be taking shots of tequila at the same time given what your reaction time is going to be like. There's a reason rural interstates are full of "drowsy drivers get killed" warning signs. This plan isn't even possible with an ICE unless it's got a massive supplementary fuel tank somewhere.

Have you looked at charger distribution in those thousands of miles of rural areas? It's a lot better than you think.

Now, if you're driving a minivan, I'm assuming there are kidlets involved. I don't have any myself, but it's my understanding that unless you're also giving them some of your tequila they get a little unruly after 13 hours of being strapped in a seat.

I've road tripped across the montains in the Southwest in an EV, I'm not just making this up. I have friends who have done cross-country blasts in EVs and have not had any trouble maintaining significant progress despite having to charge. The problem you're seeing (and exhibiting) is the lack of awareness of what charging stops are, how fast they are and how often you really stop on a road trip. As more people are exposed to how EVs actually work, this perception will change.

Next time you do a 1000 mile one day drive, keep a log book and let us know what your actual moving vs stopped time is.

Keith Tanner said:

they get a little unruly after 13 minutes of being strapped in a seat.

Fixed.

Seconds if infant.

I guess that there are plenty of people who take their vacations in 150 mile chunks, but I imagine that most of us have those "We're driving across the country in 3 days if'n it kills us" stories.  

People of means tend to overspec their vehicles - Full backroads package for that one trip to the mountains every year. Full-size pickup for the bags of compost and C8 Vette for the cruise to the winery.  

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

I guess that there are plenty of people who take their vacations in 150 mile chunks

I guess I am one of those people.  Or I take a flight.

I've roadtripped with my four kids from SC out to the rockies once, yellowstone once, and Maine once (just picking three) and each time our daily run was around 300-400 miles. Reasonably doable with an EV at near 2021 battery capacity.

We have family in central new york, which is right on 800 miles. We always do this in one trip, though it is generally not the best experience. We typically take around 13 hours. We've done this trip maybe 20 times. Having an EV require a charge in the middle would indeed make it harder, but then again it would make everything else about owning the van easier. 

We did what I would consider a pretty heavy-driving road trip this year in the PacHy and no leg was more than 300 miles, and even 300 miles was really pushing it for having two kids in the car. Most EVs can charge pretty quickly now, so if you had a reliable fast-charge network along the way I think a 300 mile max range is more than enough. 

More remote destinations like Michigan's Upper Peninsula definitely do not have a reliable EV charging network yet, but probably will soon. 

I could do 1000 miles by myself in my Odyssey minivan. The lane keep assist and radar cruise control do a lot to reduce your workload enough that it actually reduces driver fatigue. Not having to spend as many brain cells just keeping the car between the lines on straight, long sections of road makes a big difference.

But add any passenger in my family that I'm likely to have and that's a big NOPE. Probably stopping once an hour.

tuna55 said:

Erich said:

In reply to tuna55 :

I mean even if you lose the second row stow-n-go to batteries, you could still put the 4x8 plywood in, just have to remove the seats first. It's not that hard, I've done it many times on the PacHy

I doubt the batteries will go in the front end, don't want them to be in the crumple zone. 

Maybe you're right about the crumple zone. I am not sure.

 

Honestly, having lived with stow n' go for close to a decade, I would hesitate to replace the pacifica with a vehicle which did not have such a device. Removing the seats is a pain, and has to be done ahead of time, and my wife and kids won't be able to it themselves.

One issue with the stowngo seats?  They are hugely uncomfortable.  The lift out middle seats on our PAcHybrid are much, much more comfortable to sit in.  The rear still folds flat and the middle fold down to provide a flat platform/table so I could still haul sheets of plywood or lumber, etc.

It would be nice to have those storage bins though, but then accessing them is tricky with Weathertech mats and the like.

Erich said:

We did what I would consider a pretty heavy-driving road trip this year in the PacHy and no leg was more than 300 miles, and even 300 miles was really pushing it for having two kids in the car. Most EVs can charge pretty quickly now, so if you had a reliable fast-charge network along the way I think a 300 mile max range is more than enough. 

More remote destinations like Michigan's Upper Peninsula definitely do not have a reliable EV charging network yet, but probably will soon. 

Yep, about 3-4 hours between stops is about the max we can do with the toddlers via leveraging the in-car entertainment system and rolling potty breaks with the portable potties.  We did a 5-hour blast from Portland to Klamath Falls to meet up with some family, the return trip was broken up with an overnight in Bend because the driver needed a break.

ProDarwin said:

Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:

I guess that there are plenty of people who take their vacations in 150 mile chunks

I guess I am one of those people.  Or I take a flight.

Yea. After an 8 hour each way trip to Vegas a bunch of years ago, if I'm going anywhere more than about 4 hours by car away, I'm taking a plane and getting more time at my destination with less headache and less fatigue when I arrive. 

I've also only had 2 vacations in the last umm uhh 20 years or so. Yea, last family vacation I was 14, so Vegas in 2012 and the honeymoon this past August. 

To add in, my 6 year old becomes unbearable during the 30 minute drive to her grandmother's, I couldn't imagine torturing myself or anyone else locking them in a car with her for 6+ hours.