EV Towing

Keith Tanner said:

GRM cannot discuss trucks without getting into slammed minitruck territory :) I can tell you that the tall hood on my diesel 2500 is full of mechanical stuff. The 1500 appears to be styled so as not to appear weenie by comparison. So maybe we blame the tall hoods of half-tons on the arms race for the 3/4 ton.

As for charging at campgrounds - that's already being done by EV people. It's a fairly logical extra income source for the campgrounds, it would not surprise me to see EV charging stations popping up at KOAs across the country.

The primary reason I own my truck is towing. I went back through the logs about a year ago and figured that 80% of its mileage was with a trailer, and every one of those trips is a multi-day cross country (or international) trip. The average lifetime speed for engine run time is something like 45 mph. My M5 shows an average closer to 33, and I suspect that's a moving average and not an engine running average. This is not a typical use case at all.

With the Ford F-150 EV having a towing capacity of 10,000 pounds  and a range of up to 300 miles ( 230 is standard)  that's pretty close to 4 hours. At which time a bathroom break and a meal break is called for.  
  No idea yet how much weight will affect range. I'm sure some. 

Are Teslas set-up for a certain road speed to get max miles per charge ?

Somewhere the wind resistance is the lowest  per MPH , and that probably changes for each model  :)

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Serious Q.  Wankles are notoriously thirsty and unreliable, except it seems in racing terms where they work well (that damn awful noise excepted).  What is it makes them so suited to WOT running compared to piston engines for WOT constant speed running?

Side note on spinning doritos of death as a previous owner.  Can we stop this BS that a 12A or 13b are 1.2L or 1.3L.  If you count the chambers and revolutions it can be argues that a 13b is at least 2.6L equiv and more likely a 3.9L.

All engines are most efficient at WOT but wankels are especially so.  It has a lot to do with all that internal surface area, which makes them thermally inefficient.  This sucks away the power benefits from not having to drive camshafts and their power sucking valvesprings.

Displacement is silly, and entirely NSU's fault because they wanted to sell 1000cc-taxed cars that made 2000cc-level power.  Any rotary builder will tell you that they are effectively a piston engine of double its "NSU coup" size.  Most sanctioning bodies use a 1.7 or 1.8 multiplier, which meshes well with how they are less thermally efficient.  In practice, you can get 300-330hp from a 13B, which is about equivalent to a 2000cc four in a similar state of tune.

californiamilleghia said:

Are Teslas set-up for a certain road speed to get max miles per charge ?

Somewhere the wind resistance is the lowest  per MPH , and that probably changes for each model  :)

I know they use the speed limit as an expected speed when calculating charging on a trip. They'll take altitude changes into account as well. If you set the cruise to the speed limit, it's pretty darn accurate. They don't tell you how fast to drive, they assume you will drive as fast as you legally can :) It may be this "legally" thing that makes people complain about optimistic range claims, the car makes one assumption and if you don't do that thing, its calculations are not accurate. Driving at 80 mph on a 55 mph highway, you're going to burn more power.

I expect EVs to have a range hit when towing. My diesel 2500 loses up to 50% of its range when highway towing an enclosed trailer - possibly more, I've done very few highway trips without one.  I don't think weight will be as much of an issue as long as they can swallow the regen energy quickly enough. Weight isn't a big factor on flat roads, nothing like drag. But an ICE throws away all the work done to climb a grade, the EV can get some of it back. And the heavier the trailer, the more energy there is to recover. You won't get 100% of it so weight will be a factor still, but not as much as it is with an ICE. That would be some interesting experimentation.

Keith Tanner said:

GRM cannot discuss trucks without getting into slammed minitruck territory :)

True.

I agree with both sides.  There are capacity reasons that modern trucks are so high.  But that doesn't make them fun to live with when you are doing lower-capacity things that still require space.  I would argue that for general runs to HD, moving furniture or appliances, and some other general tasks a 1990 F150 is a better truck than a 2020 F150. (excluding obvious drivetrain improvements).  If you want to do heavier duty things the old truck is a joke in comparison.

Unfortunately modern lower capacity trucks, which would likely outperform an old F150 in most metrics, are still taller and difficult to load, but don't have a full size bed.  Kind of the worst of both worlds.

Keith Tanner said:

Or we put the wires overhead. Which is a proven tech for buses and trains and trolleys. I suppose we could have a "charging lane" where vehicles could essentially perform in-flight refueling.

So many potential problems :)

Or microwave charging! A giant microwave burst from the roadside that charges the batteries while the vehicle is driving! Yes the passengers will be a well done by the time they get from Newark to Pasadena but think of the carbon savings!

Tom1200 said:

So I'm curious how far do most people tow? GRMers are a unique crowd and probably fall into the 1-2% of people who need more range. 

From my house to Laguna Seca is 75 miles, Sears Point is 85, Thunderhill is 180, Buttonwillow is 225.  Laguna and Sears are day trips, so unless the track installs chargers those numbers get doubled for a round-trip.  Thunderhill and Buttonwillow would feature a hotel stay which presumably offers at least some opportunity for charging.

I'd want at least a 15-20% margin in range on top of those numbers to account for things like unexpected headwinds or detours.  A truck which offered a 250 mile range while towing my enclosed trailer would probably be acceptable, but that's probably a 500-600 mile non-towing EPA range.

From 2019 a Kia Niro EV towing a Spec Miata on an open trailer he calculated a 30% range drop for the 75 mile trip to the track https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=6nyKMSmbPhc

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

All engines are most efficient at WOT. 

Only if WOT doesn't require fuel enrichment.  Otherwise, the richer mixture typically out-weighs the reduced pumping and other losses. 

rslifkin said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

All engines are most efficient at WOT. 

Only if WOT doesn't require fuel enrichment.  Otherwise, the richer mixture typically out-weighs the reduced pumping and other losses. 

WOT just makes the pumping losses at a min.  Could very much still have knock and temperature issues that makes combustion efficiency from being ideal.  

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Tom1200 said:

So I'm curious how far do most people tow? GRMers are a unique crowd and probably fall into the 1-2% of people who need more range. 

From my house to Laguna Seca is 75 miles, Sears Point is 85, Thunderhill is 180, Buttonwillow is 225.  Laguna and Sears are day trips, so unless the track installs chargers those numbers get doubled for a round-trip.  Thunderhill and Buttonwillow would feature a hotel stay which presumably offers at least some opportunity for charging.

I'd want at least a 15-20% margin in range on top of those numbers to account for things like unexpected headwinds or detours.  A truck which offered a 250 mile range while towing my enclosed trailer would probably be acceptable, but that's probably a 500-600 mile non-towing EPA range.

How big is your bladder?  How often do you get hungry, thirsty, or just want to stretch?  
    All the rest of it is excuses and not relevant.  

My wife rarely goes as much as 2 hours (or 120 miles) before needing to stop. me I'm good for 240 miles 4  hours. 

frenchyd said:

How big is your bladder?  How often do you get hungry, thirsty, or just want to stretch?  

I think the furthest I've towed without stopping is about 4 hours, although that was driven by the need to refuel.  I've done 5 in the past when driving a car without issues.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

That's your needed range. Realize even if the speed limit is 70, 4 hours of travel is going to average 60.   Towns, detours, traffic, construction,  etc. drop your average.  
    Because we're early into EV's you don't notice the recharging stations.  But they are out there. Ride with someone with a Tesla and I never was more than 30 miles away from one. Some were 2-3 miles apart. Now they are popping up at Target stores, so expect to see them at Walmart's etc etc.  
    Expect to see gas stations add charging in the near future.  They make a lot of profit on pop, coffee chips, etc.  The more traffic they get the more they earn. 
    

frenchyd said:

How big is your bladder?  How often do you get hungry, thirsty, or just want to stretch?  
    All the rest of it is excuses and not relevant.  

Disagree.  If you have the range, you can be choosy about where you stop for what, and not every stop has to be a fuel stop.  Having driven the same truck/camper/trailer combo with both a 32 gallon tank, and 55 gallon tank, I'll take the longer range 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.  When we're on the road, we usually travel 600-800 miles in a day, unless our destination is under that from home.   We usually stop at 200-250 miles or so, but it's a big relief not having to worry about fuel at every stop.  And out here in the rural west, not every dot on the map has fuel... at least not always at a place you would want to stop.

Also, most of  the discussion of the e-vehicle stop being equivalent to a fuel stop is based around a 20-30 minute charge time.  An e-vehicle towing is going to use considerably more energy for the same mileage, so considering the same charge rates, it will take additional time to charge.  Split battery packs/ parallel charging could make up for that, but that's more infrastructure that isn't currently out there.

In reply to Rodan :

I repeat,  how big is your bladder?  Mine I can go 4 hours. Then I have to stop.  But sometimes I feel like stopping early because I like that restaurant or gas station. 
     
When I last drove to San Diego  1560 miles. I made it in 28 hours.  Only 2 hours at a road side rest. With the new Ford F-150 EV  I could have done that. 
      

frenchyd said:

That's your needed range. Realize even if the speed limit is 70, 4 hours of travel is going to average 60.   Towns, detours, traffic, construction,  etc. drop your average.  
    Because we're early into EV's you don't notice the recharging stations.  But they are out there. Ride with someone with a Tesla and I never was more than 30 miles away from one. Some were 2-3 miles apart. Now they are popping up at Target stores, so expect to see them at Walmart's etc etc.  
    Expect to see gas stations add charging in the near future.  They make a lot of profit on pop, coffee chips, etc.  The more traffic they get the more they earn. 

Location of charging stations along the way isn't the concern, it's availability of charging at the places that I'm going to be stopped.  Towing to the track isn't a pleasure drive, I'm really not interested in spending an hour each way cooling my heels at a charging station that I have no other reason to stop at.  If I'm going 200 miles to the track and then 200 miles home, the truck needs to be able to recharge at the hotel, at the track, or to have enough range to go the whole way without doing either.

As was mentioned previously, towing range is expected to be at best half of the non-towing range.  So a 500 mile "EPA range" truck should be enough to go from home to track without needing to stop, assuming that either the hotel or the track adds the necessary charging infrastructure (neither of them has it right now).

I saw a Tesla towing a single axle trailer with a pair of motorcycles on it through the hills of west TX today, fwiw. 

I'm excited for some real competition for Tesla. He's got first mover advantage. Great. Now the real players want a seat at the table and Elon must be sweating it so much he's resulted to pump and dump schemes for crypto to make his quarterly numbers. 
 

I am enjoy. 

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

frenchyd said:

That's your needed range. Realize even if the speed limit is 70, 4 hours of travel is going to average 60.   Towns, detours, traffic, construction,  etc. drop your average.  
    Because we're early into EV's you don't notice the recharging stations.  But they are out there. Ride with someone with a Tesla and I never was more than 30 miles away from one. Some were 2-3 miles apart. Now they are popping up at Target stores, so expect to see them at Walmart's etc etc.  
    Expect to see gas stations add charging in the near future.  They make a lot of profit on pop, coffee chips, etc.  The more traffic they get the more they earn. 

Location of charging stations along the way isn't the concern, it's availability of charging at the places that I'm going to be stopped.  Towing to the track isn't a pleasure drive, I'm really not interested in spending an hour each way cooling my heels at a charging station that I have no other reason to stop at.  If I'm going 200 miles to the track and then 200 miles home, the truck needs to be able to recharge at the hotel, at the track, or to have enough range to go the whole way without doing either.

As was mentioned previously, towing range is expected to be at best half of the non-towing range.  So a 500 mile "EPA range" truck should be enough to go from home to track without needing to stop, assuming that either the hotel or the track adds the necessary charging infrastructure (neither of them has it right now).

 

 

You are aware that Ford will be selling a gas powered portable charger that fits in the bed  to charge the truck if you want to exceed the range?  

In reply to frenchyd :

The Honda generator will be quieter and more reliable.

 
/s

frenchyd said:

You are aware that Ford will be selling a gas powered portable charger that fits in the bed  to charge the truck if you want to exceed the range?  

It doesn't take much math to show that for a meaningful amount of range extension we're talking about a 20kw generator or more.  You can go look up the specs on generators of that power rating, but they're very heavy and expensive.  Mobile ones are usually mounted on a trailer, you'd need a forklift to get it into the bed.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I don't know details, but Ford is offering something.  Rumor  has it a 2 liter DOHC 4 cylinder. Not diesel. 

frenchyd said:

You are aware that Ford will be selling a gas powered portable charger that fits in the bed  to charge the truck if you want to exceed the range?  

This hasn't been confirmed. It's nothing more than speculation based on some patent drawings. We don't know what it will be, how much range it might add, what it will cost, what the added weight might do to payload/tow ratings, or when/if somebody might be able to buy it.

Right now, if somebody needs an F150 to tow long distance, the hybrid model is likely the best option. That might even remain true if an ICE range extender becomes available for the Lightning at some point in the future. Until energy density of batteries improves, they're going to struggle with duty cycles that involve lots of work.

This article below quotes a study by Strategic Vision, a major automotive consulting firm, on how pickup owners uses their trucks. Turns out 75% basically never tow (less than once per year... which means never to data scientist). We have to infer the % that tows frequently more than 4 times a year like some of us because the article didn't link to the actual data (which I'm sure the Big 3 have all paid to access) but I'm guessing it is in the low single digits.

Other interesting stats: 83% of pickup owners use it as primary commute vehicle. 70% hardly ever go off pavement. And 35% doesn't actually use the bed (they haul something less than once a year).

https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/...cowboy-costume

Basically, Ford doesn't have to go after the towing market with an optional drivetrain in their half ton truck. This is not replacing gas or diesel engine pickups that are used for edge cases... (and yes, towing large amounts long distances regularly ARE edge cases). The commercial work truck version of this is aimed at contractors and landscapers that don't have long distances to go. Suppose they spend even 30 minutes at each property and drive perhaps 10 minutes to the next property. In a 9 hour day with a 1 hour lunch break and two half hour mid breaks that's 7 hours on shift, so maybe 10 houses, or round up to 11. Say they're based 20 minutes from the first and last house they make the rounds of and that's perhaps 140 minutes of driving. Since it's all neighborhoods and city streets maybe they average 25mph. 2.33 hours * 25 mph = 58 miles in a 9 hour work day. Even if the range is only 120 miles when doing towing of a ~3000 pound landscape trailer, I'm thinking that's totally fine as it means the total range is about 2x what's needed on a given day.

In reply to Chris_V :

According to Ford's research the average commercial F150 owner puts under 174 miles on their truck daily.