F1 2014

oldsaw wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: That only works when you own the team. When you're working for someone, there's more strategy involved than just running someone off the road because they're ahead of you. Otherwise you find you're not working for anyone anymore.

That happens to coincide with Hamilton and Rosberg announcing they're delaying contract negotiations with Mercedes. Or, it could be that Mercedes is behind it until they figure out a way to clean-up the mess their mismanagement started. McLaren wants a lead driver for the new Honda era. Would they take a chance on buying-out one of the Merc drivers' contract? They already have stated they're courting Vettel and Alonso so money can't be an issue.

Not sure McLaren wants Hamilton back.... yes Hamilton can handle a car... no doubt... but he can't seem to handle the politics... he always seems to whine when he loses, and isn't much for passing praise around when he wins.... no I in team

Tom_Spangler wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I rate Nico as an 'A' driver along with Vettel, Button, Kimi (heading for B status) right now while Lewis is A+ and Alonso A++

Putting Button in that group shows your Brit bias, though.

I never understand the anti Button sentiment. I think a lot of people discount him as a champ as he spent so long in mediocre cars. Would Schumi or Vettel have won championships in a 2001 Benatton or 2005 BAR or 08 Honda? No. Over the course of his career he’s outscored his team mates nine of his 14 years including having LCH as a team mate. In the old points system he outscored his team mates by an average of 16 points per season, including the years he was behind. Under the new points he outscored his team mate by 9.75 points per season. Just looking at his time with LCH as a team mate he scored 672 points to LCH’s 657 and had 12 wins to LCH’s 13. How is that the record of a crappy driver not deserving of a WDC or catagorized as a B driver

Tom_Spangler wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I rate Nico as an 'A' driver along with Vettel, Button, Kimi (heading for B status) right now while Lewis is A+ and Alonso A++

Putting Button in that group shows your Brit bias, though.

agreed … while Button has a WDC … I'd rate him a B+/B++ at best now

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Well put. The same could probably be said for other "no. 2" drivers. By no. 2 I mean drivers who are qualified enough to hold the esteemed seat of an esteemed team but whether through written or verbal contract always are required to give way to "no.1". Specially: Barrichello; Massa; Coultard. These are just the first three that came to mind, I'm sure there are many more in the history of F1.

Button is my guy, but he should probably move on from F1 to WEC.

oldeskewltoy wrote: no I in team

But there is a "me"!

wbjones wrote:

Tom_Spangler wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I rate Nico as an 'A' driver along with Vettel, Button, Kimi (heading for B status) right now while Lewis is A+ and Alonso A++

Putting Button in that group shows your Brit bias, though.

agreed … while Button has a WDC … I'd rate him a B+/B++ at best now

I put Button in the top grouping because he's always been fast; not flashy like some others but very, very fast. But Adrian falls short by ignoring Ricciardo (because faster than Vettel) and Magnussen (because faster than Button). Why not Bottas, too?

Put Kyvat and Hulkenburg in decent cars and that "A" group gets even bigger.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Tom_Spangler wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I rate Nico as an 'A' driver along with Vettel, Button, Kimi (heading for B status) right now while Lewis is A+ and Alonso A++

Putting Button in that group shows your Brit bias, though.

I never understand the anti Button sentiment. I think a lot of people discount him as a champ as he spent so long in mediocre cars. Would Schumi or Vettel have won championships in a 2001 Benatton or 2005 BAR or 08 Honda? No. Over the course of his career he’s outscored his team mates nine of his 14 years including having LCH as a team mate. In the old points system he outscored his team mates by an average of 16 points per season, including the years he was behind. Under the new points he outscored his team mate by 9.75 points per season. Just looking at his time with LCH as a team mate he scored 672 points to LCH’s 657 and had 12 wins to LCH’s 13. How is that the record of a crappy driver not deserving of a WDC or catagorized as a B driver

I'm not anti-Button, I just don't think he belongs in the top group with Der Vet and the Kimi of the past. He won his title in a car that was a HUGE overdog due to a rules loophole. You want to put an asterisk on this year's champ if they win because of double points? Then you should put one on Button for winning with the blown-diffuser 09 Brawn. Yes, he beat his teammate fair and square that year, but his teammate was another perpetual #2 who by that time was past his prime (Barrichello).

I think the Barrichello/Massa/Coulthard comparison is apt. Very good drivers, multiple race winners, sometimes one of them ekes out a championship with the right car and a little luck. I'd also include Gerhard Berger and Mark Webber in that group.

Tom_Spangler wrote: I'm not anti-Button, I just don't think he belongs in the top group with Der Vet and the Kimi of the past. He won his title in a car that was a HUGE overdog due to a rules loophole. You want to put an asterisk on this year's champ if they win because of double points? Then you should put one on Button for winning with the blown-diffuser 09 Brawn. Yes, he beat his teammate fair and square that year, but his teammate was another perpetual #2 who by that time was past his prime (Barrichello). I think the Barrichello/Massa/Coulthard comparison is apt. Very good drivers, multiple race winners, sometimes one of them ekes out a championship with the right car and a little luck. I'd also include Gerhard Berger and Mark Webber in that group.

If you want to put an asterisk against every champion who won in a car that was a huge overdog, you'll need a awful lot of them. 2013, 2011, 2009, 2004, 2002, many of the Newey cars in the 1990s, the list goes on.

Let us not forget Button's awesome drive from last to first in Canada 2011

Montreal

codrus wrote:

Tom_Spangler wrote: I'm not anti-Button, I just don't think he belongs in the top group with Der Vet and the Kimi of the past. He won his title in a car that was a HUGE overdog due to a rules loophole. You want to put an asterisk on this year's champ if they win because of double points? Then you should put one on Button for winning with the blown-diffuser 09 Brawn. Yes, he beat his teammate fair and square that year, but his teammate was another perpetual #2 who by that time was past his prime (Barrichello). I think the Barrichello/Massa/Coulthard comparison is apt. Very good drivers, multiple race winners, sometimes one of them ekes out a championship with the right car and a little luck. I'd also include Gerhard Berger and Mark Webber in that group.

If you want to put an asterisk against every champion who won in a car that was a huge overdog, you'll need a awful lot of them. 2013, 2011, 2009, 2004, 2002, many of the Newey cars in the 1990s, the list goes on.

2009 was a whole different matter, though. All of a sudden, the former Honda team, which had never done jack, comes out of nowhere and flat-out DOMINATES in offseason testing and the early part of the season. Heck, they were unsponsored for a good part of the year. And suddenly they are whipping the big boys by significant margins. Halfway through the season, the rest of the field caught up, but by then Button had such a huge lead, he was able to hold on to win the title. You can't discount the importance of the blown diffuser in that car.

Magnussen slammed that same door in Alonso's face earlier in the race & Alonso did the one-hand prayer to Charlie Whiting. While it wasn't as bad a chop as the 2nd one where Alonso was nearly wheel-to-wheel even with Mags & Mags declined to leave room on track, his prayer was still answered.

I yelled at Matchett when he kept talking about how the rules force teams to park the top drivers if they aren't in position to get points & "how has it come to this?" when it was the DRIVER who wanted to quit. The team couldn't let him retire until they could come up with some sensor data showing he HAD TO STOP FOR RELIABILITY CONCERNS so they can change transmission without penalty.

etifosi wrote: I yelled at Matchett when he kept talking about how the rules force teams to park the top drivers if they aren't in position to get points & "how has it come to this?" when it was the DRIVER who wanted to quit. The team couldn't let him retire until they could come up with some sensor data showing he HAD TO STOP FOR RELIABILITY CONCERNS so they can change transmission without penalty.

Again, don't blame Lewis for the rules that are in place. He was trying to think strategically. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Tom_Spangler wrote: 2009 was a whole different matter, though. All of a sudden, the former Honda team, which had never done jack, comes out of nowhere and flat-out DOMINATES in offseason testing and the early part of the season. Heck, they were unsponsored for a good part of the year. And suddenly they are whipping the big boys by significant margins. Halfway through the season, the rest of the field caught up, but by then Button had such a huge lead, he was able to hold on to win the title. You can't discount the importance of the blown diffuser in that car.

Toyota and Williams also had blown diffusers and didn't have nearly the success that Brawn achieved, so although it had a big effect, it wasn't JUST the blown diffuser. Red Bull caught up by the end of the year because Brawn had no money to develop.

In reply to trigun7469:

Please explain the reference to Schumacher at Ferrari? I remember the same rules at red bull the past few years and also at McLaren. Work as a team first.

MB is riding the razors edge of pulling the plug on their F1 team. The EU is still in tough economic crisis now. It does help if like Audi at LeMans they go all in for a decade and then make enough connection from the F1 success to the new new Merc AMG GT-R. Part of that funding needs to be the #1 position mfg championship fia/fom winnings.

The comment regarding free racing whenever the lights go out is fair but these two dummies should grow up and self impose rules to guarantee the champion is either one of two guys. Right now they are trying to lose a sure thing.

etifosi wrote: Magnussen slammed that same door in Alonso's face earlier in the race & Alonso did the one-hand prayer to Charlie Whiting. While it wasn't as bad a chop as the 2nd one where Alonso was nearly wheel-to-wheel even with Mags & Mags declined to leave room on track, his prayer was still answered. I yelled at Matchett when he kept talking about how the rules force teams to park the top drivers if they aren't in position to get points & "how has it come to this?" when it was the DRIVER who wanted to quit. The team couldn't let him retire until they could come up with some sensor data showing he HAD TO STOP FOR RELIABILITY CONCERNS so they can change transmission without penalty.

I'm in no way able to be confused with a Hamilton fanboy … but all he was doing was anticipating their decision … no way to prove or disprove, but I'd bet he would have been fine with racing as hard as he could no matter the futility, if there wasn't any associated penalty (equipment wise)

and I totally agree with Matchett … and I'll go way farther … do away with the "no in season testing" … and yes I realize that that would mean the richer teams would end up at the top of the pile ….

oh … wait … that's where they are anyway … what it might do is tighten up championship chases

Keith Tanner wrote:

oldeskewltoy wrote: no I in team

But there is a "me"!

And you can also spell 'meat', not sure how that fits into the scheme of things...

oldeskewltoy wrote:

oldsaw wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: That only works when you own the team. When you're working for someone, there's more strategy involved than just running someone off the road because they're ahead of you. Otherwise you find you're not working for anyone anymore.

That happens to coincide with Hamilton and Rosberg announcing they're delaying contract negotiations with Mercedes. Or, it could be that Mercedes is behind it until they figure out a way to clean-up the mess their mismanagement started. McLaren wants a lead driver for the new Honda era. Would they take a chance on buying-out one of the Merc drivers' contract? They already have stated they're courting Vettel and Alonso so money can't be an issue.

Not sure McLaren wants Hamilton back.... yes Hamilton can handle a car... no doubt... but he can't seem to handle the politics... he always seems to whine when he loses, and isn't much for passing praise around when he wins.... no I in team

That's funny. Who was it that screamed in the mic that his teammate needed to pull over so he could pass him? Hamilton has played the politics MUCH better at Mercedes than Nico.

Vettel and Hulkenberg stir the pot of desent over @ Mercedes.......

Tom_Spangler wrote: 2009 was a whole different matter, though. All of a sudden, the former Honda team, which had never done jack, comes out of nowhere and flat-out DOMINATES in offseason testing and the early part of the season. Heck, they were unsponsored for a good part of the year. And suddenly they are whipping the big boys by significant margins. Halfway through the season, the rest of the field caught up, but by then Button had such a huge lead, he was able to hold on to win the title. You can't discount the importance of the blown diffuser in that car.

The 2008 Honda was useless, but the 2007 and 2006 were reasonably decent cars. Not championship winners, but reasonable cars.

The 2009 Brawn (Honda) was the result of Honda giving Ross Brawn (who had more championships than Newey at that point) access to enormous resources to lead a team to develop a car. They quit developing the 2008 Honda after 3 or 4 races, easily six months before anyone else switched over full time.

The blown diffuser had no impact on that car, that was the 2011 Red Bull. 2009 was about the double diffuser, something that several teams implemented, and which the FIA specifically ruled legal. You don't need an asterisk just because your competitors missed the implications of the rules and failed to use the allowances.

Do you put an asterisk on Senna's championship in 1988?

Tom_Spangler wrote: 2009 was a whole different matter, though. All of a sudden, the former Honda team, which had never done jack, comes out of nowhere and flat-out DOMINATES in offseason testing and the early part of the season. Heck, they were unsponsored for a good part of the year. And suddenly they are whipping the big boys by significant margins. Halfway through the season, the rest of the field caught up, but by then Button had such a huge lead, he was able to hold on to win the title. You can't discount the importance of the blown diffuser in that car.

But if Honda hadn't bailed, then the 2009 Brawn would have been the 2009 Honda and it would have shown that the team and drivers hard work finally paid off. Are you going to dismiss Vettles dominance going 9 in a row at the end of last season as a flash in the pan as they were way off the pace this year? Button has a hell of a record at beating his team mates including LCH. I dont' understand why people keep writing him off. Even this year people are raving about how Magnussen is doing such a great job and saying Button is washed up, conviniently ignoring the fact that Button is out scoring him 68 to 37 at this time

So back to the devaluing of Superlicences and Mad Max coming in next year. I had a look at who did or more interestingly who didn't get Superlicences in the past. I was stunned at what appears to be some blatant Eurocentric anti American racing bias. I've just found out that before Michael Andretti got his Superlicence in 95 for his terrible season with McLaren, he'd been turned down twice prior to that. First in 86 for a seat with the Haas team and again in either 91 or 91 for a ride at Benetton!! That's nuts. By 85 he was a regular podium finisher in CART and by 91 he was champion. How on earth can you give Senna and Brundle Superlicenses straight from F3, but not give a CART podium finisher one? That really smacks of European racing elitism. Heck, Andretti competed at LeMans in 83 and finished 3rd as well.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Tom_Spangler wrote: 2009 was a whole different matter, though. All of a sudden, the former Honda team, which had never done jack, comes out of nowhere and flat-out DOMINATES in offseason testing and the early part of the season. Heck, they were unsponsored for a good part of the year. And suddenly they are whipping the big boys by significant margins. Halfway through the season, the rest of the field caught up, but by then Button had such a huge lead, he was able to hold on to win the title. You can't discount the importance of the blown diffuser in that car.

But if Honda hadn't bailed, then the 2009 Brawn would have been the 2009 Honda and it would have shown that the team and drivers hard work finally paid off. Are you going to dismiss Vettles dominance going 9 in a row at the end of last season as a flash in the pan as they were way off the pace this year? Button has a hell of a record at beating his team mates including LCH. I dont' understand why people keep writing him off. Even this year people are raving about how Magnussen is doing such a great job and saying Button is washed up, conviniently ignoring the fact that Button is out scoring him 68 to 37 at this time

I tend to agree with you about Button, his skills are tire conservation and keeping the car together, I think what weakens his stance is that he doesn't always qualify well. To be honest I am not all that impressed by Mags and I think Hulk and Button would be the better team for Mclaren. Especially since they are changing engines.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: But if Honda hadn't bailed, then the 2009 Brawn would have been the 2009 Honda and it would have shown that the team and drivers hard work finally paid off.

It was a great car, the best of the double-diffuser (sorry) cars. And it was leagues ahead of the field.

Are you going to dismiss Vettles dominance going 9 in a row at the end of last season as a flash in the pan as they were way off the pace this year?

Considering he was on his way to winning his FOURTH consecutive WDC, no, I don't think I'll call him a flash in the pan.

Button has a hell of a record at beating his team mates including LCH.

OK, how impressive is that, though? Hamilton doesn't have that great a record against his teammates. He tied with Alonso in 2007, spanked Kovaleinen in 08 and 09 (a guy who's out of F1 now), and as you say, was outpointed by Button during their years together and so far he's behind Nico in their year and a half together at Mercedes.

I dont' understand why people keep writing him off. Even this year people are raving about how Magnussen is doing such a great job and saying Button is washed up, conviniently ignoring the fact that Button is out scoring him 68 to 37 at this time

I'M NOT WRITING HIM OFF! He's an excellent driver. I just don't think he belongs in the top tier of F1 drivers.

Of course now they are saying Vettel is having discussions with McLaren. It's going to be an interesting few months.