F1 2015

Keith Tanner wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: So if the engine is optimized for PETRONAS fuel, how does that make the customer engines equal? That's shaky. FWIW- my computer is constantly autocorrecting PETRONAS to all caps. Driving me nuts.

The engines will be mechanically equal, but it's up to the customer teams to feed and cool them properly. Seems reasonable. The tire pressure was a minimum spec to help the tires survive the race. But the measurement technique wasn't thought out and the FIA admitted that after Mercedes called them on it. If you want to blame someone for the spec, blame Vettel's whining after he wore out his tires at Spa.

While it seems reasonable, it's also not really possible that, other than getting a fuel sample and reverse engineering the fuel, that other fuel manufacturers can replicate the fuel that Mercedes designed the engine around. So if there's an advantage in PETRONAS fuel, then other Mercedes customers will not be able to utilize that. And it's an advantage that Mercedes designed into the engine.

As for the tires- I just find it interesting that the tire isn't at fault- but lets make it a rule change anyway. Which would have been even MORE interesting has Hamilton been penalized- a Ferrari driver whining that his tires failed forced a rule change that other teams didn't pick up on and lost the next race on a technicality- in Ferrari home country. Thank God that didn't happen.

Mercedes doesn't have to share everything with their customers. Since so many (if not all) of the teams are sponsored by fuel companies, it makes sense that those companies will want to do their own special blend.

In fact, this appears to be the case. http://m.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117986

Also, the FIA proposed a single fuel supplier a couple of years ago and it was shouted down by the teams.

I believe the tire rule was intended for safety, the same way they're not allowed to flip them on the wheels anymore thanks to last years UK race. It was an overreaction, imo.

I just watched a piece on fuels for f1. They said it is so highly regulated that the fuel is 1% different than premium pump fuel. You could literally run it in your own car with no ill effects.

If my previous statement is, in fact, true... I have no idea how much of a difference the fuel could make. Doesn't seem like much.

My DNA is probably only 1% different than that of Lewis Hamilton, too

You guys would have gone nuts if this same "infraction" occurred to a red car driver at Monza, and no penalty was handed down.

Looks like Hamilton is F1's "golden boy".

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Yea, yours might be Mr racecar driver!

Mine, not so much!

In reply to etifosi:

If they handed out the expected penalty he would have still won.

etifosi wrote: You guys would have gone nuts if this same "infraction" occurred to a red car driver at Monza, and no penalty was handed down. Looks like Hamilton is F1's "golden boy".

So that's why he has blonde hair now.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/italian-gp-f1-s-tyre-controversy-know-the-whole-story

An interesting breakdown of what happened and when.

Short version, there is a Pirelli engineer for each team who checks tire pressures before the race. However, there was not a specified time or place to check pressures. The Mercedes Pirelli guy checked them while in the tire warmers on the rack (as he'd always done) and pronounced them legal. They were checked again on the grid, finding them under pressure. Some Pirelli "pressure checkers" check them as they come out of the warmers, before grid, on grid, etc. Since the Mercedes Pirelli guy said they were legal, Mercedes assumed they were good.

-Rob

In reply to rob_lewis:

Interesting.

This is the part I see as most important:

In other words, if Pirelli wants the FIA to properly police pressures on its behalf, it has to come up with a definitive procedure that everyone accepts and understands, which is not the case at the moment.

Especially if people want actual penalties to be levied.

It's not hard to define what the min pressure and under what conditions means. It's also important that the FIA and Pirelli agree what is good and bad- in this case they were not the same answer.

In reply to wvumtnbkr:

THAT'S why they should have done it! Would have made his epic drive EPIC and like, rules or something.

Not a Hamilfan, but that was an epic drive and he is on a spooky stat trajectory with the immortal Senna.

It would have made it look like the rules apply to Mercedes/Hamilton as well.

In reply to etifosi: You should read the article.

Pirelli says that they didn't violate the rule. And it's their rule, too.

In reply to alfadriver:

Read it, don't see "MB did not break rule, sez Pirelli."

I read it once, then put on my rosso corsa al-youminnyum balaclava to re-read and think that all teams measure some lines a little blurry at times. With ambiguities in the rules regarding when tire temps are measured, MB shouldn't need petty "Oh THAT'S what cold psi on the grid means!", especially after ROS was all "i coulda crashed and died when my tire unfrayed itself at Spa".

I understand what happened & that you can't have gentlemens' agreements when none are present.

Wasn't saying HAM should have lost the race, actually think the red purse posse's biggest foe would/should get ultimate respect for that drive if he Tigered to overcome team stupidity & won by a fraction of a second.

And WTF did they bone ROS w/an old power unit at Monza for?

Stay classy Dr. Z & Toto.

There was a problem with Rosberg's 2016 engine - sounds like a gasket problem. They had no choice but to put in the old engine. I know Mercedes - and probably others, but I've only had conversations with Mercedes power train engineers - monitors the wear of their engines closely, and I'll bet they were really nervous about putting that tired engine back it. It ALMOST made it. One safety car or a better start and he'd have crossed the line.

The engineers want to run the tire pressures lower than the minimum. Mercedes knew how the temps were measured and exploited a grey area in the rules. That's all.

Keith Tanner wrote: There was a problem with Rosberg's 2016 engine - sounds like a gasket problem.

After the race Rosberg said it was actually a chassis component, and it turns out there was nothing wrong with the 2016 engine. Don't know if that's true or if more info came out since then.

Let's not forget we're talking about 0.3 psi in one tire, not all four, and Pirelli agree that the low Merc measurement was taken a longer time after the tire warmers were removed than the figures they took at Ferrari, so the big problem is inconsistency in measurement. And they didn't measure the pressures on all teams, either. The FIA/Pirelli need to specify a set time after the warmers come off for the measurement so that all tests are the same, and enforce them all the same for all teams (if they are going to bother). And I can't conceive that 0.3 under on one tire amounts to any measurable advantage, and the tire was almost certainly at legal pressure before the lights went out, after the warmup lap to the start.

Hammy's hair isn't new, either - exactly the same as Villeneuve maybe 15 years ago.

Final comment (for now)- although I agree that Senna was possibly the most gifted driver I've ever seen, and I've watched 'em all back to Clark, he was also possibly the most ruthless. I was never a big fan (well, not after he left Lotus) because of his behavior, which I still consider bullying and unsportsmanlike (yeah, I'm an OF). So Hammy and Vettel being right on Senna's win-per-number-of-races-started stat doesn't bother me a bit. I think the driver talent has been much deeper the last 4 or 5 years than in Senna's day, when the only real threat was Prost, and on good days, Mansell. I think Hammy and Vettel are where they are simply because they are that good. Sure, they have had great cars, but you still have to drive the things, and both have had seasons when they didn't have the best cars.

alfadriver wrote:

etifosi wrote: You guys would have gone nuts if this same "infraction" occurred to a red car driver at Monza, and no penalty was handed down. Looks like Hamilton is F1's "golden boy".

So that's why he has blonde hair now.

I think that even eTifosi would have agreed that some kind of penalty that allowed a red car to win would have been totally bogus. The tires had already been deemed legal on pressure by Pirelli. It was just a really badly thought out rule when everyone knows PV/T.

I would have loved to see a Ferrari 2nd and 3rd. I wonder if we'll ever know what happened with Kimi. if it was really a car issue or a Kimi issue that put it in anti stall. Last I heard Kimi says it wasn't his fault and ArrivesWell said the car was fine. Good job Kimi already has his contract for 2016 inked as you never, ever critisise a red car if you want to keep driving it. (Prost, Alonso etc.) No matter what, it was a hell of a drive from last place at T1 to 5th at the finish.

JohnyHachi6 wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: There was a problem with Rosberg's 2016 engine - sounds like a gasket problem.

After the race Rosberg said it was actually a chassis component, and it turns out there was nothing wrong with the 2016 engine. Don't know if that's true or if more info came out since then.

First rule of F1, it’s never ever an engine issue. It’s always a)Hydraulics, b)Electrical (the blame McLaren card) or c)an external to the engine component. It’s sounds like a water pipe had a fracture allowing water and oil to mix. The engine can be saved and will be back in the chassis next time out, but it couldn’t be de-contaminated at the track.

In reply to etifosi:

So if this does not mean that Mercedes did not break the rule- what does it mean? From the article-

Indeed, Pirelli confirmed to the Stewards that Mercedes had complied with its own requirements, vis a vis its blankets plugged-in measurements.

It IS Pirelli's rule, afterall. If Mercedes complied with the requirement- thus meeting the rule, then Pirelli says that Mercedes was ok. And the procedure Pirelli does is pretty clear- they measure the tires right after they come out of the blanket. If there's supposed to be a rule for pressure on the grid, well, being Pirelli's rule, they should tell everyone.

Speaking of boning a driver- what was up with Kimi's car? Should be capable of moving out of its own way.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to etifosi: So if this does not mean that Mercedes did not break the rule- what does it mean? From the article-

Indeed, Pirelli confirmed to the Stewards that Mercedes had complied with its own requirements, vis a vis its blankets plugged-in measurements.

It IS Pirelli's rule, afterall. If Mercedes complied with the requirement- thus meeting the rule, then Pirelli says that Mercedes was ok. And the procedure Pirelli does is pretty clear- they measure the tires right after they come out of the blanket. If there's supposed to be a rule for pressure on the grid, well, being Pirelli's rule, they should tell everyone. Speaking of boning a driver- what was up with Kimi's car? Should be capable of moving out of its own way.

in some cases … there were reports of varying times from when tire blankets removed and pressures taken … whatever, it's Pirelli's rule … as long as they're satisfied, there shouldn't be any penalties

One of the HAAS drivers will be either Ferrari reserve Esteban Gutierrez or Ferrari's test driver and former Toro Rosso racer Jean-Eric Vergne.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120728

The other seat - "and we're still looking for an experienced Formula 1 driver, a current driver. No rookies."

I still say Button is the best one to fill the seat and help HAAS with development.... IF Button is bumped from McLaren, and he doesn't decide to retire.....

In reply to oldeskewltoy:

Nothing against Gutierrez, but JEV really deserves the seat. He was jsut as good as Danny boy Ricciardo in STR and really didn't deserve the punt. He outscored Ricciardo in 2012. In 2013 Danny outscored him, but JEV had the highest place STR finish of the year. in 2014 he trounced Kvyat, I've no idea why he was moved up to the A team while JEV was let go. I'm not anti Ricciardo or even Kyvat, but I really rate JEV

I whole heartedly agree that Jenson Button is the man to be in the other Haas F1 seat. Seems like McLaren is at a turning point, has to look to the future, and needs some new, young blood behind the wheel. Alonso's probably closer to retirement than he'd care to admit. Button's input would really shorten the learning curve for Haas. On the flip side, if you're McLaren, do you really want your driver going over to Ferrari/Haas and telling them everything he knows?

Rosberg just may have had his spirit broken in Monza. 50 points back is a long way to try and recover from.

Did anybody hear if MB will continue to use the 2015 with 2016 updates engine for the rest of the year?

Or reverting back to 2015 stuff?

Singapore seems to be a track for Redbull to be stronger than Ferrari. I wonder if Williams has anymore fight in them. They just seem to be slipping back.

I hope Honda will figure something out to pull McLaren to midpack before the end of the year.

Kimi can still be cut, I am sure that the there is someway for Ferrari to end his contract if he continues to perform poorly regardless of fault. At this point either him or his chief car mechanic needs some tweaking.

It was rather odd that the stewards didn't inform MB about the out of regulation pressure until the last ten laps. That is sucky organization.

The point of the rule is to ensure safer tire performance not play gotcha.

Kevin Magnussan to Haas??