I wrote this the other day, but was somewhat embarrassed to post it as it’s a distant dream. But after the BT46 thread, here goes.

I have a fantasy; we’ll let’s not go there. I have a dream! No that’s been taken. How about ‘I have a really stupid idea’, yup that should work around here. The only person I’ve shared this stupid idea with in the past is Tom Spangler. It’s, wait for it. To build a replica (well look alike) of an 80’s F1 car. Yeah, I said it was stupid. Now, I am under no illusion that I have the time, money or skill to do this, and right now what little of all of those I have is taken up by my Saab, my current plan is to start this stupid endeavor on April 8th 2019, my 50th Birthday and complete it before my 60th, by which time I’ll be too old to try and drive it at 11/10ths so I might even survive the experience. My idea would be a steel space frame with a suitable gearbox from an Audi / Boxter (should be peanuts by then) with an engine at least very remotely related to the original. i.e. a Cosworth car would use a 302 SBF, a BMW Turbo could use a turbo M42, an Alfa flat 12 could use an Alfa V6, A Tag/Porsche could use a Duratch V6 (original design berkeleyed up by Porsche before being rescued by Ford) or a Boxter flat 6, a Honda turbo by some alphabet soup Honda V6 and a Ferrari by, well I’ve never been a big Ferrari fan really. I figure a 1,000lb car with a 400hp engine is still 3lb’s/hp by the time you strap by (to be) 200lb fat arse in the cockpit. More than enough to scare an old guy.

Now, I said 80’s F1 car, why 80’s? That’s the period I grew up watching, living, breathing F1. It’s a little known fact that the 80’s stretch from approx. 1976 to 1994, who knew huh? Well those are the cars I like. Yes before that there were some lovely super swoopy cars, then early wings, but I never liked the big air boxes of the early / mid 70’s. I loved the relative simplicity of the designs, mainly single curvature panels etc. I really loved the slab sided look of the ground effect cars before they were band, then the pencil cars followed by the really low cars. I never got on with the looks when things started moving to high noses and super complex aero, that lost purity to me. There are another couple of considerations too. First, it must be a car that has the driver’s feet behind the front wheel center line. That rules out most of the skirted wing cars as they pushed the driver further and further forward to a perilous degree. That rule change came in 1988, but there were quite a few cars in the mid late 70’s that met that, and a few from the early 80’s too, or at least close enough you could make it work. Other considerations are that it must be a car with a covered engine, a 302 SBF while compact is never going to look like a DFV, so it needs to be hidden. One more thing, it has to have been driven by a driver I like and/or a team I like and/or a designer I like. As you’ll see there is one designer who comes up a lot. So the following posts will be some of my favorite cars to be considered.

So what’s the point and where would I use it? Well there isn’t a point, and let’s face it there isn’t really a point to racing, autocross, Locost’s, 7’s or kit cars in general other than ‘I want too’ on behalf of the owner. Same here. I would want to use it in Hillclimbs, track day’s etc. Now I know your about to say you can’t use open wheel cars at track days, well that’s not strictly true, I’ve been at a track day, on track (in my old SN95) with a mid 90’s Indy car. Also you could always add fenders as people used to do with old F1 and F3000 cars for interseries etc. Who cares, I just want too.

This may never happen, but mental masturbation is fun isn’t it?

OK, first off here’s some form of inspiration. Remember Iron man II when they went to the Monaco Historic GP? Well some of those cars were real F1 cars provided by the Historic GP association, but several, including Starks car were fully functional tube frame cars with a one piece fiberglass body. That’s the sort of simple Idea I like. The body of these cars was loosely based on the Wolf WR1/2/3 which is one of the cars I like. I’d plan on a far more accurate look and replica color scheme such that it would look right driving past or at rest from 50’. This would never be a true replica, more like a tribute.

Here’s the ‘Iron man’ car.

IT doesn’t look so good in this shot, but it looks better in the ones below.

Note the bright 15” not flat black 13” wheels, that would need to be resolved too. Note a ‘real’ car (possible Ferrari) in the foreground.

Look how much room there is in the cockpit here!

Get the idea, super simple ‘Locost’ approach underneath with a pretty looking body on top. Still lot’s of work, but no more than any other midi Locost.

You can see several of the ‘fakes’ here in red, yellow and blue/white. They suddenly don’t look so out of place when you see the real Lotus ahead, Ferrari, what I think may be a real Wolf plus McLaren etc behind.

1976-77 tyrrell P34 So let’s start of with a favorite of many people, me included, but not under consideration. The Tyrrell P34. First off the attractive version has an exposed engine, and the later ones with enclosed rear and sponsorship from First National City (you have to love it a puerly US company sponsoring F1 back then)

The classic P34 look, but a totally open engine and six wheels. These cars also had the avantage of being driven by both Patrick Depailler and Jody Scheckter who I like, being a race winner and coming from a team I love. I also built the 1/12th scale Tamiya model in the mid 80’s, I wish I knew where that was.

The bodywork here is actualy very simple of you look at it, but I really don’t want the compexity of six wheels, plus I’d have to lay down more and/or raise the roll hoop.

1976-1977 Wolf WR1 – WR3 Another car I built the 1/12th scale model in the 80’s. Such a lovely shape and color scheme, this is a car that shocked the establishment by winning its 1st race, it actually won 3 races and Scheckter (him again!) finished 4th in the WDC.

Good side shot, fairly enclosed body, although you can see the stacks herre. Driver set well back and body along the full side of the driver that could house side impact protection. This is one of my favorites.

Note how wide the chassis is, lot’s of room which is good. Also note the high roll bar, I’ve seen several versions, compare with the curved one above and below.

Curved roll hope, also notice outboard front suspension meaning simpler construction and more room inside the chassis. What a shape.

Note low line airbox to hide the engine. Not always used, but would look right.

And this has been re-issued to take measurements from.

Even though this is only a model, it’s a great shot as it showes some of the advantages and disadvantages of the WR1. First off lots of driver room which is good. Also note how low the chassis sides were on cars back then. To me having nothing but the front and rear roll hopes above your hips is very dangerouse, but with a space fram you can continue the chassis up to the cockpit body sides for much more sagety. Now a disadvantage, because the gas tanks were in the side pods, not between the driver and engine like later cars, I would have less space to play with for fitting the engine/trans assuming they are larger than a real DFV and HEwland (Duh)

Drawrings to scalre from

Brabham BT46 1978-1979, not the Fan car This is the first of several Gordon Murray designs. This car was most famous as the Brabham fan car, but while causing considerable controversy it only ran (and won) one race in fan car form, and the fan made it look ugly to me. I’ve always liked the pyramid chassis; it gave the car a neat compact look and was strong for the time. It did suffer from the same lack of upper structure as other cars of the era, but again I could build a space frame within the body work. One big disadvantage was the original had a flat 12 which was very low; I’m not sure what could fit under the rear deck which I wouldn’t want to raise.

This is an early version with heat exchangers on the side of the chassis (The silver parts) instead of a traditional radiator, it didn’t work and a radiator was added at the front, I wonder if a rad could be hidden and keep this look.

Cut away showing the layout and engine package.

This is the fan car version, but they are similar from the front. Note the nice high cockpit sides, good for protection.

Great shot of non fan car version showing the over all look. You have to love the red Martini stripes.

Again as with the P34 and WR1 there is a Tamiya model available, although I’ve never built one.

This is the last of the old cars with very crude aerodynamics, I see these cars as at an advantage as a) I’d be less likely to end up with a dangerouse car from the aero point of view and b)they will, even in ‘replica’ form have less ultimate grip, probably a good thing

Here’s another one, the second Lotus ground effect car the Lotus 79 of 1978. It’s a beautiful car, but it has one major issue that unfortunately put it out of consideration. The driver is too far forward with his (my) feet in front of the front wheel center line which is a no no, also I couldn’t move him back without radically altering the shape which I don’t want to do. But notice the lovely simple slab sided shape, it was cars like this that really got me into F1, they just looked so right to a young kid – pre teen.

You can see here from the position of the master cylinders how far forward the drivers feet are. Another issue is the semi exposed intake trumpets, although that would be more managable.

See, some old guy driving the real thing, proves that an old fart could drive one  Again, you can see how far forward Mario is in the car.

Compared to the earlier cars I’m concerned about the aero balance. Without skirts, which I don’t think are allowed anywhere, how would the car work with the full length tunnels? . I think if I made it flat bottomed it would be fine though. Reasearch would be needed to allay my fears. Doesn’t’ matter though, I don’t see a way round my personal rule of my toes being at or behind the front wheel center line. With 2.5-3 lb’s/hp there is a strong possibility of hitting something at some time, and I want to walk away so my wife can kill me intact, not in the hospital 

And guess what Tamiya make a model, I’m noticing a trend here, Tamiya make models of a lot of the cool cars I like. Who’d have thunk it, they make popular cars!

1980 Williams FW07 1979-1982 This car isn’t really in consideration again due to the driver’s feet, but I have to include it here. Williams was my favorite team at the time and Alan Jones was my first F1 hero in 79 and 80 when he won the WDC. This series of cars won 14 races in various guises over its tenure and was even cribbed as the Longhorn LR01 and used as an Indy car in 1980. I’ve also had a lifelong love hate relationship with Williams as they have some of my favorite drivers, Mansell, Prost and more recently Hulkenburg, but they have a bad habit of firing them after success. They’ve also had some of my least favorite like Senna and the one guy who rates below Schumacher in my personal list, Piquet, although neither of them drove this car (That will be an issue for the next couple)

27 Alan Jones in 1980, my first F1 Hero. What a great looking car again.

Another cut away where you can see the issue. The front upper wishbone/rocker arm is right by the drivers knees. Such a shame. Note unlike the early cars though the petrol tank is between the driver and the engine. This would give more room for larger engines, but is what pushed the driver so far forward. A double edged sword.

Here we are as the Longhorn, the Indy copy of the FW07.

Oh, and guess who makes a model!!!

Tyrrell 011 1980-83 Not a supper successful car, but the car that gave Tyrell it’s last ever win, and the last win for a Cosworth engine in the hands of Michele Alboreto at Detroit (the great city) in 1983. This car looked great in unsponsored Tyrrell blue and also great on Benetton green when they came on board in 83. It’s another ground effect car, but I think it would be OK flat bottomed.

Benetton colors with front wing, not partialy exposed engine, but with the top covered I think it could work.

In Blue, looks just as good, typical early 80’s Cosworth ‘Kit car’ this is a modern picture, notice totally covered engine.

Now the downer, not the second access hole in the nose, those are the pedals and they are way infront of the wheel CL. Pity, it’s such a simple pretty car. Also note the narrow roll hoop, this could be made wider I think withough ruining the look, although I think there are too many strikes against it.

No model, but there are some good scale drawings to work from, if I cheated on the ‘look’ I could move the driver back far enough to work. There’s plenty of room where the massive fuel tank was that I wouldn’t need.

Brabham BT52 1983 Another Gordon Murray Brabham car. 1983 was the year the FIA finally managed to ban ground effect and the get around cheats and several constructors came out with pencil thin cars. One of the best looking to me was the BT52; it just looked like a rocket or fighter plane to my 13 year old mind. A space ship for the race track. It looked (and still does through rose tinted glasses) fast even sitting still. This is the first car other than the BT46 that didn’t use a Cosworth engine (or in my case a 302 SBF) but I see no reason not to use close relative. S14B23’s are silly money, but M42/M44 hybrid engine with Euro diesel crank and a turbo. This would probably be the closest to a real engine!!! While the cockpit looks narrow without anything to protect the driver from side impact, it’s actually 24” wide, which would allow almost 3” either side of my hips or no worse than many existing formula cars such as Formula Fords, it is a consideration though. This car was unusual for the era in having a long wheelbase, around 108” compared to 98” for the Wolf, 102” for the BT46 although the FW07 was up to 106”

No cheap Tamiya model, but great scaleable drawings even with sections.

Drivers feet are behind the wheel center line and shocks. This is the first car with true inboard suspension with belcranks. More complexity, but not the end of the world.

I love the look of this car, it’s biggest negative other then it’s width, is Piquet, my least favorite driver pretty much of all time, but it was also driven by Riccardo Patrese, although he was pretty much a nobody (It’s great how I can dismiss a 6 time Grand Prix winner as a nobody isn’t it. Not a bad record, but look how his team mates did in the same car)

Brabham BT55 1986

This car was yet another Gordon Murray design, although his last for Brabham. The car was a great concept, but unfortunate a flop. The idea was great, lay the driver down as much as possible and lean the engine over for the lowest CofG. Unfortunate two things counted against the car, first it was too flexible with the low tub, secondly the famous 1,500hp BMW engine didn’t’ have the reliability when canted over. Worst of all this is the car that Elio DeAngelis died in at Paul Ricard when testing. The rear wing broke and the car flipped and set on fire, the lack of rescue crews (It was ‘only’ a test) meant he couldn’t be extracted in time. A stupid death that shouldn’t have happened. On the upside, the heated Piquet didn’t drive it and the concept went on to be very successful.

Another issue can be seen here. Look how low the sides are leaving the drivers arms exposed.

‘Only’ a paper model, but you can see the pedals are maybee a touch infront of the wheel CL, but I think there would be enough wiggle room in the design to make it work. Also notice the relative thickness of the tub sides, meaning fatty room could be built in with a space frame. The biggest issue though is lack of upper body protection.

Tyrrell 016 – 1987 This is an odd one that most people won’t be familiar with. While it appears that the car only scored enough points for Dr Jonathan Palmer to finish 7th in the WDC, it actually was better than that. 1987 was supposed to be a transition year between turbo’s and back to naturally aspirated engines (up to 3.5L from the old 3.0L) in 1988 they were supposed to be at parity (someone forgot to tell Honda that), but in 1987 they knew there would be a difference, so the FIA had a championship within a championship and had the ‘Jim Clark cup’ for the NA teams. The Tyrrell 016 won that handily with 11 ‘Victories’ ( 7 for Palmer and 4 for Philippe Streiff) although Palmers highest actual finish was 4th in the season ender at Adelaide.

Drawing avilable.

I can't seem to make the hot link work so here's a direct link http://www.flickr.com/photos/antsphoto/6112163376/sizes/l/in/photostream/

Looks like the feet might be a little far forward, but managable if I were willing to cheat on the shape.

Williams FW11/11B 1986/7

OK, here is the first of three Honda engine machines from the 86-88 era when Honda turbo was the only thing to have behind you. Another Williams design and this one driven by one of my favorite drivers, yes he was a whiner at times, but Nigel Mansell, Il Leone was a hard charging regular guy who put everything on the line to get to F1, he has depleted uranium nads for his bravery, broke his back (twice) mortgaged his house the lot. The guy worked his ass off and managed to win 31 races the WDC and the Indy car championship, hard not to like him (No national biased here honest) This car isn’t the best looking car here, but it is the epitome of the time, and at the time I thought it was the best looking car out there.

A suitable Honda V6 engine should be hard to find, heck didn’t they make a gazillion C series motors over the years and aren’t Honda’s known for loving boost?

Aagh the agony, I was up in the middle of the night shouting at the screen as his tire burst and the Frog won the title instead (all is forgiven, I rate Prost very very highly these days)

Good top shot.

This is, to be honest lower down my list of possibilities.

1988 McLaren Mp4/4 – 1988

The definitive car of the 80’s, arguably the most successful car ever taking 15 of 16 races in 1988, it should have been 16 of 16 if Senna (Boooo hisssss) hadn’t hit Jean-Louis Schlesser while trying to lap him handing the win to Berger, in a Ferrari (1st and 2nd), In Italy at Monza a couple of weeks prior to Enzo’s death!! I remember that race and loved it as I never liked Senna. To show how dominant it was, Adrian Newey’s amazing RB7 only won 12 of 19 rounds in 2011 when der Wonderkid won his 2nd title and his FW14B only won 10 of 16 in 92 when Il Leone finally won his much deserved championship.

This car was designed by, surprise surprise Gordon Murray; it is in many ways what he wanted to the Brabham BT55 to be and proved the basic design concept. It’s another car that has an amazing purity of line, it’s very simple, instantly recognizable and so sleek, and it looks great. It was also built in 88 so the feet are already mandated behind the front wheels. My biggest issue with it is how slim the roll bar/roll hope is, if you look at many shots you can see Prost (yeah) and Senna’s (Boo) helmet sticks out either side. I would have to make the roll hoop wider for safety and I think any regulations and I’m not sure that would work with the styling.

Prost, in Detroit no less.

Look how narrow the roll hoop is.

Prost at Monaco, what a cool shot. It also shows what a lovely simple shape it is. Also see how the bodywork goes all the way back to hide the ‘wrong’ mechanicals inc. the gearbox and the fact I’d have a chassis holding the rear suspension not a space frame.

Various drawings to scale from.

And guess what.

Lotus T99/T100 1987/1988

Another 1988 car, though much less successful. This is the Lotus 100T, it was a development of the 99T that Senna (Boo) drove, but when he left to go to McLaren in 88 Piquet (mega Boo) jumped ship from Williams taking the Honda engines and the #1 with him as he couldn’t handle the heat from Mansell (Cheer). For 88 though the car was not a success. It was almost identical to the successful 99T except the nose was longer for guess what reason? Protecting those delicate tootsies. Tamiya made a model of the 99T I built as a kid, I painted it yellow as with the Camel sponsorship, but instead of the CAMEL logos on the side I made up signs saying CiRaT which was the name of my parents company. They told me not to get big ideas; they weren’t going to sponsor me to F1 

So it’s another great looking car but driven by two of my least favorite drivers, luckily Satoru Nakajima who was a sort of antihero in his crapness drove it too.

Note the Courtauld sponsorship for the 88 British Grand Prix instead of Camel, I think cigarette advertising was already banned in the UK, note Senna has Marlboro colors but no writing as well.

Note the very narrow roll hoop though, this is worse than the MP4/4

Model and the real thing, these are the 99T though

Benetton Ford B188 – 1988

After sponsoring Tyrrell and Alfa, Benetton bought the remains for Tolemen and became their own team in 1986, I was a firm fan of them until they hired the cheater (the 6 time world champ who’s just found himself out of a job, no he didn’t win 7 titles, his first was stolen from Hill by illegal traction control, illegal fuel rigs and he still had to run Hill of the road to steal it)

They were always attractive cars, but they hit a high point in 88 with the B188. It has all the advantages of being an 88, back to a Ford engine (I like SBF’s and figure ex NASCAR parts are cheap, sound great and indestructible) . I love the double bubble air intakes on the side pods and the color really suits it. The biggest negative is the narrow roll hoop as with the other cars of the era. It was also driven by Alessandro Nannini and Johnny Herbert, two mega triers and nice guys who never had the success they deserved in F1. Nannini was injured in a helicopter crash, and after the massive crash in F3000 its amazing Herbert managed to get back in a car, let alone win 3 Grand’s Prix and LeMans.

Modern pic, but great detail and high res.

Honorable mention Ferrari 640 (aka F1/89) 1989

I’m not a big Ferrari fan, but the 640 is one of the best looking cars ever to race, and it was driven by Nigel Mansell (with the iconic # 27 on the front) who managed two wins, two 2nds and two 3rds, but never finished any other races in it in 89. There’s just something wrong about Ferrari replica’s, I have no idea what you could power it with, but it’s so good looking I have to throw up a couple of pictures.

Look at that Coke bottle shape, very narrow though.

So, that’s it really, some of my favorite cars and a silly day dream, but I hope you like the pics anyway.

I think my personal top two are the Wolf WR1 and the Brabham BT52 for overall shape, size appeal, build ability etc. If anything the Wolf is ahead, but it’s all academic unless I totally lose my mind and do something about it in a few years.

I hate that your first post response is a negative, but there are numerous key pictures missing which spoils the flow of the narrative.

MAN YOU MUST HAVE HAD SOME TIME ON YOUR HANDS! That's a lot of writing & research. Now let me go off and digest some of this.

So, would this F1 replica have to be made street legal?

I love the idea in theory. Of course the devil's in the details - which car or are you going to build a fleet of cars and that's why you are allotting a 10 year build time?

I'd suggest just building a Locost first so that you can work out the little bugs like suspension and packaging.

Then build another Locost with all the improvements you realized you needed after the first one was built. Seems that's what most people do.

Ops, I'll try and fix some of the links. This wasn't writen in one day, it's been written over the last few weeks then posted at once. Some of the links may be dead.

No, I'd pick one car and build it, not a fleet, that would have me commited. I figure this is just a Locost with a twist. Both have an chassis, both have 4 wheels, both have an engine and gearbox. It's just a 'regular' Locost looks like a '7' and this would look like an 'F1' car.

If everyone what the time, skill and money when they started a stupid project we would never have any stupid awesome results.

Dive in. What could possibly go so wrong that you would deeply regret trying.

( scene flashes to the ashes and rubble of the children's hospital where you attended the first car show with it... )

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Brabham BT46 1978-1979

I like this the most. For quite a while this triangular wide base main hoop had been popular with fsae teams to maximize driver space, impact beam height, and chassis stiffness.

Shape wise I think it would be easy enough to build while still being quite unique and attractive..

Power could come from a Subaru H6 for the noise with a 6 speed STI box. And it should be low enough for the engine cover.

I like where this is headed

I like the MP4/4 and F189. You could put a triangular-ish hoop on the MP4/4 starting just above the Marlboro logos, that would give you good protection and wouldn't clash with the styling too much.

The BT46 could work too, if you want to keep the heat exchanger shape while using a radiator that actually works though, it's going to look quite different. You could put sort of triangular inlets on the front faces just behind the wheels (sort of like an F22's jet inlets but upside-down) and then use a very long, skinny radiator (you may have to put 2 together on each side) leaned far forward, and put any oil coolers somewhere behind those, and then totally open up the face by the rear wheels, and maybe put some holes to allow air out of the pods into the engine area as well.

BTW I have a fairly similar but significantly stupider (more complicated) idea so you're not alone

All the pics are now fixed

(sets iPhone calendar reminder to check this thread in 10 years)

Enyar wrote: (sets iPhone calendar reminder to check this thread in 10 years)

Ouch. Please note, I said I'd start it in 2019 and finish by 2029!