on a side note but still on the subject of F1, Sutil is in 3rd in Pratice!!! Come on Force India!!
on a side note but still on the subject of F1, Sutil is in 3rd in Pratice!!! Come on Force India!!
Just moments after the conclusion of second free practice for the British Grand Prix at Silverstone, the FIA has announced that it will begin legal proceedings against the Formula One Teams Association over its proposal to form a breakaway series to rival F1.
FOTA made the announcement late on Thursday night that it was to start its own series in 2010, having failed to reach an agreement with the FIA to commit to the F1 grid for next season thanks to the ongoing dispute over Max Mosley's idea for a budget cap.
BMW Sauber, Brawn GP, Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull Racing, Toro Rosso, Renault and Toyota all planned to quit F1 as a result of the ongoing dispute but the governing body has now responded with the threat of legal action.
In a short statement, the FIA revealed that the teams – and Ferrari in particular – had contractual commitments to F1 that couldn't broken, leaving it with little option but to begun legal proceedings.
The governing body also confirmed that the publication of the 2010 entry list has also been delayed.
“The FIA's lawyers have now examined the FOTA threat to begin a breakaway series,” the missive read. “The actions of FOTA as a whole, and Ferrari in particular, amount to serious violations of law including wilful interference with contractual relations, direct breaches of Ferrari's legal obligations and a grave violation of competition law. The FIA will be issuing legal proceedings without delay.
“Preparations for the 2010 FIA Formula One World Championship continue but publication of the final 2010 entry list will be put on hold while the FIA asserts its legal rights.”
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/148554/1/fia_launches_legal_action_against_fota.html
Haven't the teams been threatening this for a decade or so? I'll believe it when they put on their first race.
And once again Ferrari gets treated differently 
FOTA will counter with contract violation by the FIA; there is wordage in the "sporting" documents that stipulate a stable rules package.
That's something the FIA and Mad Max have been breaching for quite sometime.
There are batterys of lawyers salivating for the chance to argue both sides, so it ain't over yet.
I very much doubt that they will end up with two separate series, I think they'll stand up on stage together to kiss and make up in public while continuing to stab each other in the back in private. Honestly it's hard to have much sympathy for either side in this fight, but at the end of the day I think there will be few tears shed by anyone if Bernie and Max do get put out to pasture but with the teams coming 'back' to the FIA with different leadership.
Right now costs have to come down. I was thumbing through magazines at Boarders the other day and saw a snippet showing how costs have risen for even the mid ranked teams. Apparently in 1995 Jorden spent $10m to get 6th in the constructors championship where STR spent I think it was $160m for the same spot last year. Does anyone think the show is 16 times better since then? I don't.
I don't think I missed a single race on TV from 79 to 94, let's roughly call that the 80's. Let's look at some of the technology that was developed in that time with out hundreds of millions being spent.
End of ground effects
Turbo's
RPM's went from 9K to 15K
Carbon fiber chassis
Active suspension
Semi auto gearboxes
Carbon brakes
Improved driver safety (Yes it's improved way more since Senna's death, but just look back to the mid 70's)
Refueling
Tire changes
Switch from Mechanical to electronic fuel injection
Water injection came and went
ABS
Etc etc
There was massive technological advances and some epic team and driver battles. If they can find a way to cap costs, reduce speeds but still allow technology I'm all for it. Have FOTA announced what their rules would be or what they would do to cap costs? At least the loathsome Max and Bernie show had a plan, a bad one, a forced down peoples throats against their will one, but a plan non the less.
One great prospect I see for FOTA is new tracks, or should I say old tracks. I know I don't watch F1 much anymore, but come on. The Max and Bernie show have sold races to anyone with a few hundred mil to spare, what about some of the classic tracks we've lost. The biggest danger there is the series loosing some of it's 'world' status, but that's a risk I'll take.
It sounds like FOTA plan on making the races cheaper to put on and cheaper to attend. Those are two very laudable goals in my mind, people keep forgetting that this is a sport for Spectators to watch and enjoy.
Yea at the turkish grand prix the bbc preshow talked to ferrari boss and ross brawn and they seemed to make reasonable statements and have a set of changes they want to see, ferrari even said they're ban kerrs even though they spent a boat load of money on it so it's cheaper for new teams to get in. As for the law suites, ferrari stated several times that the FIA has to provide a fair rules packages or something like that so it'll be an interesting fight to see whos breaking contract. I wonder what kind of split there is between fota and the other teams.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson:
"Let's look at some of the technology that was developed in that time with out hundreds of millions being spent. "
hundreds of millions may not have been spent, but it was still huge $$ for the time. what was a top basketball player or movie star getting paid back then? What have the salaries of the drivers done in the same time span?
Lots of stuff has gotten a lot more expensive, but what why should this cost savings be pushed down the throat of the teams? They are the MAJOR stakeholders in this, not the FIA. The FIA can manage teams spending Lemons budgets the same as they can the F1 constructors. How does it effect them what the teams spend?
Lets look at how the FIA has cost teams more money then they would ever hope to save. Go from V10 to V8 as a cost savings??? developing a new motor to save the cost of 2 extra pistons?? KERS- so stupid that most teams don;t use it and even the teams that have it don't always use it. Can't change tires. The cost of the few wrecked cars because they were on bad tires is more then the cost of the extra tires. Change back the next year - more costs. Tell teams in writing that a double diffuser is not legal, then after the start of the season tell them that it is legal so they have to redesign the car mid year (with no on the road testing). They want to ban tire warmers to save $$. I club race motorcycles and have tire warmers. Cold tire crashes will cost more then tire warmers.
many, many more can be had.
gimpstang wrote: Name one development that has appeared on a road car within the past decade that NASCAR developed.
I doubt if one development has appeared on a road car that NASCAR developed in the last twenty years. I think NASCAR is irrelevant too. I'm just saying that everyone points and laughs at NASCAR but the money, politics, arbitrariness, and general immaturity of F1 is even worse.
And no, I don't think that much of the hyperspecialized F1 development trickles down. At least not in the last 10 years.
Rusnak for president of the FIA!
Duke: "And no, I don't think that much of the hyperspecialized F1 development trickles down. At least not in the last 10 years." Then you need to take another look at modern cars, especially those coming from Europe. 6 and 7 speed gearboxes, ABS, sequential gearboxes, carbon fibre technololgy, fire safety, traction control, stability control, tire technololgy, lubrication technology, ecu advances, etc. etc. came from, in a large part, from racing developement and a lot of it from F1. These advances may not get to street cars in a year or two but definately within 10. Look at the standard equipment on a BMW for example, that stuff comes directly from being used on the racetrack first. To eliminate any advances of any kind in F1 will stagnate the car industry in general, maybe not this year or next but certainly within 5 or 10. That's what is so important about a series like F1 (and LeMans) is that it is the ultimate and most extreme way to push car technology forward.
f1 is the AIG of the racing world. About time someone told the emperor he had no clothes on!
Redhornet wrote: Rusnak for president of the FIA! Duke: "And no, I don't think that much of the hyperspecialized F1 development trickles down. At least not in the last 10 years." Then you need to take another look at modern cars, especially those coming from Europe. 6 and 7 speed gearboxes, ABS, sequential gearboxes, carbon fibre technololgy, fire safety, traction control, stability control, tire technololgy, lubrication technology, ecu advances, etc. etc. came from, in a large part, from racing developement and a lot of it from F1. These advances may not get to street cars in a year or two but definately within 10. Look at the standard equipment on a BMW for example, that stuff comes directly from being used on the racetrack first. To eliminate any advances of any kind in F1 will stagnate the car industry in general, maybe not this year or next but certainly within 5 or 10. That's what is so important about a series like F1 (and LeMans) is that it is the ultimate and most extreme way to push car technology forward.
Most of the technology you state went the other way. Traction control, ECU, etc- all on road cars first. Gearboxes? It's a matter of space, not technology for more gears. Computers on F1 engines are just built with better components to survive- the code is uuber simple- has to be to operate at 18k rpm.
The only one that possibly could be considered toward road cars is sequential shifting, which came from motorcycles first.
Aero? No F1 aero matters in the real world.
it's possible that computer simulations filter down, but I suspect that it still goes toward f1 than the other direction, seeing some of the software I've seen.
F1 hasn't been relevant to real cars for decades. If they can figure out how to mass produce carbon fiber chassis for the same price as a steel stamped chassis, now we are talking.
That's one of the core problems with the sink hole that F1 is.
Eric
gimpstang wrote:Duke wrote: +2. F1 and its possible derivative are so irrelevant to the real world as to be ludicrous. People rightfully laugh at NASCAR but F1 is even worse. However, I do realize it is quite popular in other parts of the world.really? so the aero advancements, traction control, stability control, tire development, KERS progression and paddle shifted gearboxes have no application to the commercial world? and NASCAR does? name one development that has appeared on a road car within the past decade that NASCAR developed.
I'm pretty sure BTCC and WTCC cars were running primitive forms of paddle shifters before or around the same time F1 started to implement them into their cars. I remember being amazed by this watching the WTCC/BTCC races on SpeedVision when I was a pre-teen/teen.
I've seen more racing to road applications through sports car racing then I have from F1 to road. NASCAR is stuck in the 1950s on the technology standpoint, but they do know how to build a Single cam engines :)
It'd be great if some of these manufacturers hopped on the ACOs offer, because uhh, ALMS next year looks like GT only with some P2 cars. Acura won't stay if they have no one to race against, they don't have the following like Corvette does to run solo in class.
DirtyBird222 wrote:gimpstang wrote: I'm pretty sure BTCC and WTCC cars were running primitive forms of paddle shifters before or around the same time F1 started to implement them into their cars. I remember being amazed by this watching the WTCC/BTCC races on SpeedVision when I was a pre-teen/teen. I've seen more racing to road applications through sports car racing then I have from F1 to road. NASCAR is stuck in the 1950s on the technology standpoint, but they do know how to build a Single cam engines :) It'd be great if some of these manufacturers hopped on the ACOs offer, because uhh, ALMS next year looks like GT only with some P2 cars. Acura won't stay if they have no one to race against, they don't have the following like Corvette does to run solo in class.Ferrari started the semi auto paddle shifters in F1 in 90 (may have been 89, time is getting fuzzy!!!). Soon after that touring cars started using sequential boxes. Unlike the F1 technology that was hydraulically activated, the Touring car boxes were just a mechanically shifted sequential box just like a bike.
Adrian_Thompson wrote:DirtyBird222 wrote:gimpstang wrote: I'm pretty sure BTCC and WTCC cars were running primitive forms of paddle shifters before or around the same time F1 started to implement them into their cars. I remember being amazed by this watching the WTCC/BTCC races on SpeedVision when I was a pre-teen/teen. I've seen more racing to road applications through sports car racing then I have from F1 to road. NASCAR is stuck in the 1950s on the technology standpoint, but they do know how to build a Single cam engines :) It'd be great if some of these manufacturers hopped on the ACOs offer, because uhh, ALMS next year looks like GT only with some P2 cars. Acura won't stay if they have no one to race against, they don't have the following like Corvette does to run solo in class.Ferrari started the semi auto paddle shifters in F1 in 90 (may have been 89, time is getting fuzzy!!!). Soon after that touring cars started using sequential boxes. Unlike the F1 technology that was hydraulically activated, the Touring car boxes were just a mechanically shifted sequential box just like a bike.
it was 89, when Mansell and Berger was racing for them. I remeber the commentator (Varsha) making fun of Ferrari saying "we expect the Ferrari to quit with that new gearbox" when they won the Brazilian GP!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO8TLBn7z1k
i stand corrected. It still took almost 15-16 years for that technology to start entering the affordable car market.
FOTA New Season Leaked!!
Provisional FOTA 2010 schedule:
March 3 - Buenos Aires, Argentina - Last hosted F1 in 1998
March21 - Mexico City, Mexico - Last hosted F1 in 1992
April 11 - Jerez, Spain - Last hosted F1 in 1997
April 25 - Portimao, Portugal - Never hosted F1
May 2 - Imola, San Marino - Last hosted F1 in 2006
May23 - Monte Carlo, Monaco - Current F1 host
June 6 - Montreal, Canada - Last hosted F1 in 2008
June 13 - Indianapolis, United States - Last hosted F1 in 2007
July 1 - Silverstone, United Kingdom - Current F1 host
July 25 - Magny-Cours, France - Last hosted F1 in 2008
August 15 - Laustizring, Germany - Never hosted F1
August 29 - Helsinki, Finland - Never hosted F1
September 12 - Monza, Italy - Current F1 host
September 26 - Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates - Current F1 host
October 10 - Marina Bay, Singapore - Current F1 host
October 24 - Suzuka, Japan - Last hosted F1 in 2006
November 8 - Adelaide or Surfers' Paradise, Australia - Last hosted F1 in 1995/Never hosted F1
Yes yes yes
Imola, Monaco, Silverstone, Indy Jerez, Buenos Aires, Suzuka, MAgny Cours, Monza!!!!
I said a couple of days ago I hoped they would return to some of the classic tracks and dump the bazzilion $$ buy a race tracks.
I'm a happy camper
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Yes yes yes Imola, Monaco, Silverstone, Indy Jerez, Buenos Aires, Suzuka, MAgny Cours, Monza!!!! I said a couple of days ago I hoped they would return to some of the classic tracks and dump the bazzilion $$ buy a race tracks. I'm a happy camper
right on, sounds like old times again
Not buying it. They don't even officially have a series yet, and already there's a schedule? All those tracks are available, promotion is in place, sanctioning fees are worked out, facilities are up to spec, etc? Not bloody likely. Looks to me like an F1 fan's wish list.
Having said that, I'm SO going back to Indy if FOTA races there!
Tom_Spangler wrote: Not buying it. They don't even officially have a series yet, and already there's a schedule? All those tracks are available, promotion is in place, sanctioning fees are worked out, facilities are up to spec, etc? Not bloody likely. Looks to me like an F1 fan's wish list. Having said that, I'm SO going back to Indy if FOTA races there!
Right now, I agree- seems like posturing, and many of the other news sources are not reporting anything (autosport nor f1-live at 1:40pm EST, 6/23). F1-live even has reported that many of the proposed tracks have contracts with FIA that will be problems. An interesting one that wont- Monaco....
What does Monaco do with this? The May 23 date would be one week prior to the May 30 date that F1 would typically have (Memorial Day Sunday), and for sure, the FIA will try their best to maintain the current schedule with F1- regardless of the breakaway.
None the less- bring on Indy, and please, please, please delay Monza by one week!!!!
E-
Definitely bring on Indy. In 07 I had the money and could have gone to the race, but I was living in Detroit and had something I had to be at on Saturday. I said I'll make it next year, doh. Now, I'm back to living an hour from IMS, if F1 or FOTA comes back I'm there.1
Monaco has said they are not interested in hosting an f1 without FOTA!
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