Fiat 2000/124 Spider - I want one

Badly. Really really badly.

I've done a fair bit of research, where to look for rust, what to run away from, etc. Things I haven't been able to fine reliable sources for are really how to fix the 74-79 cars, which are the most common and most price efficient, in terms of performance. I read things like "just remove the smog stuff and put a good mechanical carb on there" but no actual documentation on such.

Also, who has a bolt in rollbar for track day fun with a harness bar?

What else should I know?

Convertible ones? There's nice one stashed in Northern Wisconsin for $1200 that looks like it's in decent condition. http://wausau.craigslist.org/pts/5155583077.html

EDIT: Hows this one http://greenbay.craigslist.org/cto/5172201284.html

Egghead Racer wrote: What else should I know?

Test drive one. Or two. While they are pretty, they aren't really great drivers.

Transmission synchro's are inherently weak, and dissolve in the wrong gear oil. Make sure the car goes into, and holds, all the gears. Both under throttle and under decelleration.

Charging system is remarkably weak, and frequently unable to keep up with both the headlights and the wipers, making driving in the rain at night kinda interesting.

Brakes are remarkably weak for 4 wheel disc.

Recirculating ball steering makes it feel horribly like throwing a Ford Falcon threw the turns.

In reply to foxtrapper:

Sad. What other options are there in the same vein that are better? Or is there enough support in the aftermarket to overcome the issues.

Wife still hates the Miata...

I disagree somewhat with Foxtrapper's assessment. They are pretty good driving cars, and I believe one won a shootout early in Classic Motorsports days. To me, the later injected cars are worth the money and are by far the best drivers.

Egghead Racer wrote: In reply to foxtrapper: Sad. What other options are there in the same vein that are better? Or is there enough support in the aftermarket to overcome the issues. Wife still hates the Miata...

Drive one first. Some people would call Fox's points charming and engaging- in that you have to drive a specific way to get the most out of it. Alfa Spiders are the same way.

Neither are great relative to modern cars- especially a Miata. But they are very engaging and interesting to drive, and they look good.

The alternator issue isn't hard to deal with, I don't think. The trans issues means you can't power shift. The brakes- well, good pads make them quite effective.

Still, both the Alfa and the Fiat were designed in the 60's.

I also disagree with foxtrapper. Yes its a 40 year old car, but for the day it was pretty advanced. A great source of info is http://www.fiatspider.com/f08/index.php all the info you could ever want is there. I've also seen some magazine articles from when they were new and they won shootouts with the 914 and tr6! http://www.mgexp.com/article/rt-4sports-1970.html

racerdave600 wrote: I disagree somewhat with Foxtrapper's assessment. They are pretty good driving cars, and I believe one won a shootout early in Classic Motorsports days. To me, the later injected cars are worth the money and are by far the best drivers.

I tend to agree. Compared to modern cars they will seem archaic but I always had a blast driving my sister's 1982.

I love old cars. I've been through a gaggle of 60's and 70's muscle cars, so I'm aware of their quirks. Never had a small roadster, though. They look like fun.

Don't misunderstand me, they are not bad cars at all! One of the sweetest shifting gearboxes I've ever stirred the stick on. The engine sings beautiful sounds. Gear ratios on the box really are just right. You will get attention in one, and that's fun. Wind the engine up and all kinds of magic happens.

But, like any car, they have foibles and weaknesses.

We bought one in 2008 to try for the 2009 challenge. Haven't made it yet. Floors are made of wet paper towels and disappear with water. 35 year old convertible tops supply lots of water. Engine does sound great but all the forums we visited said significant hp gains were very expensive. the brakes were ddfinty suspect with no vented discs but unless it is a track car or significantly horsepower enhanced seemed fine for brisk street Driving The weirdest thing was the front suspension as it induced positive camber when loaded. I had never seen that before and it stumped us a little.

I still want one. I just moved to Ohio and experienced my first northern "hot season". I need a little 'vert.

We have some helpful info on these cars over on our Classic Motorsports site, too: https://classicmotorsports.com/articles/tech-tips-fiat-spider-124/

And more Fiat love: https://classicmotorsports.com/search/?page=1&q=fiat

I have owned several.. and I still own one.

Yes, the spider uses reciprocating ball steering, but even then, many magazines wondered how Fiat got such good feel out of that box. It is not Rack and pinion tight, but it feels better than a MB roadster.

Fiat 124 transmissions -are- made of glass. Unlike many cars, they use springs to hold the car in gear instead of springs to push it out. Shift it gently and it's ratios will amaze. I always loved the third gear run out to 7 grand..

The small 9 inch solid discs front and rear will easily lock the wheels. It may lack in ultimate finesse, but does a decent job. The handbrake on the other hand, is about useless. NEVER trust it to hold the car on even the slightest incline.

The charging system is marginal. It can power everything the car comes with from the factory, but do not think of adding lights, powerful sound systems, or the like without uprating the alternator.. they also like to cook their batteries (which are in the trunk)

I always found the convertible top to be one of the easiest to operate and seals well. You need to make sure that the wires that hold the sides down over the winds are tight and that the drain tubes are functional. I would also make sure to extend them to under the car. From the factory they drained into the sills..

Which leads to...

RUST

Fiats Rust.. it is a fact. Most of it comes from the soviet steel they got in payment for a factory they build for the Russians to produce the Lada. It was never "cooked" at a high enough temperature to boil off the contaminants, so it had rust built right into the car.

Combine that with Fiat not understanding weather outside of Italy, shipping cars on the decks of ships, and dealers who never bothered to wash off the salt before undercoating, and it is amazing that any 124s survive to this day.

Overall I found them to be a very fun car to drive. They are nose heavy tend to plow when pushed hard in stock form. They are also under tyred from the factory Tjarrda, who designed the spider, once remarked that he designed the car with wider rims and tyres, but it came from the factory with the same wheels as the standard 124 coupe' and Sedan.

Hop up parts are out there. If I were to build an engine today, I would raise the compression to 9 to 1 (from it's 7.5 or 8 to 1, add some cams, Bolt on the later injected spider's intake and Microsquirt it. There are also exhaust manifolds and systems out there too. I would expect about 130hp.. which is plenty for such a lightweight car

RossD wrote: Convertible ones? There's nice one stashed in Northern Wisconsin for $1200 that looks like it's in decent condition. http://wausau.craigslist.org/pts/5155583077.html

I feel like that's not what you mean to link, but i can dig it in the context of this thread, somehow.

In reply to Swank Force One:

I saw that too, but I found the right link. He was also helping in the SC thread.

Thanks for all the replies. The rust is the part that will kill me. But, you know, it cal all be fixed with enough sweat and welding sunburn, right?

I've never driven one, but as an alternative, I've always wanted a Datsun Roadster.

I have a completely rust free shell I am going to be getting rid of sometime in the next year.. just need to finish my Saab so I can get it out of the garage. It's a 77 if anybody is interested and other than a small crease on the passenger front fender and door and small quarter sized rust spot (repaired) in the floor.. it's a fairly straight body

In reply to mad_machine:

Just the shell?

1980 - $10.5k

1979 - $5.9k

1975 - $4k

These are just three of many ads for these cars on my local CL. I always wonder why there are so many for sale. It seems like they are always available, but the cars I search for rarely come up (914 for example).

These cars also epitomize the uniquely Italian driver ergonomics. Helps to have the body-shape of an Orangutan. I mean, whats with that?

The cars themselves were good for their era in that they were ahead of the British sports-cars in technology if not durability and reliability. For example, the top goes up and down with almost Miata like ease. Suspension was also much more pliable than the British offerings of equivalent status. Women will actually ride in a 124, while and MGB will be avoided due to the cart-like suspension.

Before you judge the steering, look into how long since all the moving bits received attention; a little wear in each component will add up to a lot of slop.

NOHOME wrote: These cars also epitomize the uniquely Italian driver ergonomics. Helps to have the body-shape of an Orangutan. I mean, whats with that?

Or understand that Italians steer at 4 and 8 and not 2 and 10. And underhanded.

That, and a friend of mine discovered that driving at WOT is a comfortable position for the legs.

In reply to NOHOME:

I kind of look like an orangutan...

By that I mean 6'4", 180 lbs of pure stick figure. I'll be fine!