Knurled. said:
irish44j said:As to the RB1s - they are a good rallycross tire in terms of traction, but are definitely NOT a "true" rally tire as they have a much softer sidewall. The upsdie for rally-x is that they weigh much less than a real rally tire (I run RB1s on my back wheels for more traction). In small sizes for actual rally tires, DMacks are the go-to, but I think they only go down to 13" sizes....
My suggestion: move up to 13" or even 14" aluminum wheel, order Maxsports from UK. YMMV.
Softer sidewalls perform better though.
Sidewall stiffness doesn't affect debeading as much as the way the bead of the tire is designed, and air pressure, and driving style.
In 8 seasons of rallycross I've never had a debead. I think you had two thelast time we were in an event together haha ;)
A matter of opinion when it comes to softer side walls. And highly dependent on course conditions. I've managed to win East Coast championship 2 Northeast division championships and to DC regional championships almost entirely on actual gravel tires. That is just one data point, but I don't think blanket statements are worthwhile to make since car set-up and driving style and course conditions all affects Tire choice
rslifkin said:
In reply to GameboyRMH :
For off-road use, steel is generally fine. It's the high side loads and mostly sudden side impacts that are a concern for causing failure, most of which doesn't occur much in normal off-road use.
Agree it is all about the side loads for rally and rallycross. Especially at some venues that get ruts or are very grippy
We didn't have any steel wheels fail at our rallycross events this year until we ran a significant portion of the course on the clay oval at our last event, 3 different cars lost steel wheels at that event. Some of them pulled the lug nuts through the holes and one had the center come out of the wheel. I don't think they should be banned but drivers need to be checking this stuff in between runs and looking for cracks and checking torque, none if these failures happened in the morning which leads me to believe that the damage was caused over a number of runs.
Back to the original post, the fiesta looks like a lot of fun, hopefully you can find some decent tires/wheels that work on it.
Adam
Odd. Many circle tracks do not allow non-steel wheels. Particularly in the min-stocks.
I suspect those wheel failures had other causes other than being steel.
iceracer said:
Odd. Many circle tracks do not allow non-steel wheels. Particularly in the min-stocks.
I suspect those wheel failures had other causes other than being steel.
But the average circle track steel wheel is probably built a lot heavier / stiffer than generic cheep steelies or OEM ones. And they're also probably monitored a bit more closely. Plus, circle track cars are less likely to be slamming into ruts at speed.
GameboyRMH said:
irish44j said:
oldopelguy said:
bluej said:
It's generally not a good idea to run steel wheels for rallyx in the first place. They WILL fatigue and fail, just a question of when.
That's just silly. A steel wheel is going to flex and dent where an alloy wheel will crack or chip. I would use any OEM steel wheel over all but the most expensive of alloy wheels anytime, especially if I have to pay for it. If you are thinking about that Subaru that had the lug nuts pull through on the cheap winter rims during rallyx I would be willing to bet it had more to do with incorrect seat angle or shape on the lug nuts or bottoming out than it had to do with steel wheels being a problem.
I've seen three or four steel wheels crack around the centers and come off at rallycrosses around here (Shawn and Katie's Impreza, a Mustang, and something else I can't recall). And that's in a region where only a few people actually use steel wheels. I think maybe I've seen one aluminum wheel break, and it was literally 40 years old and one of those super-awful GM wheels made with the most brittle of aluminum). If you use steel wheels and drive hard, they WILL break eventually. Almost nobody uses them for stage rally either (I say "almost" because I can't think of anyone, but I'm sure there is a looney out there someplace doing so...)
This is the first I've heard of steel wheels being risky. They're the norm for offroad use and I've been beating the E36 M3 out of some steel wheels on my Samurai for years now. I don't mount and dismount them often and the holes still look good and fit well. They don't see much lateral force but they do see over 50 hours of rapid-fire vertical shocks per year, many of which would be considered catastrophic by rallycross or stage rally standards. Should I be worried?
There is no way you would be stressing the wheels on a Samurai the way a car on a rallycross course could. You'd flip the thing long before you could get to that region.
Plus, don't they have a nice large 5.5" bolt circle, and not 100mm or even 108mm?
As mentioned by many others, you should really look at stepping up to 13" wheels. It opens up a bunch of options for rally tires.
I'd be looking at the Indysport SG, which is available in 155/70/13. Rally.build is the US distributor and can get the 13's, even if they're not shown on the website.
The Indysport tires have held up far better than the MaxSport tires on my nose heavy FWD pig. The sidewalls seem to be a bit stiffer too.
In reply to Knurled. :
Yeah it's 5x5.5. Lateral loads are low but I do bounce it down trails like a little trophy truck.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
You be fine. That is stressing the centers in line, not in hard side hits.
Circle track wheels are enormously heavy and rules often spec a 7/8" (IIRC) hex lugnut. When there is a minimum weight, they put all the weight in the centers to minimize inertia, which is also good for keeping the things attached to the hub.
irish44j said:
Knurled. said:
irish44j said:As to the RB1s - they are a good rallycross tire in terms of traction, but are definitely NOT a "true" rally tire as they have a much softer sidewall. The upsdie for rally-x is that they weigh much less than a real rally tire (I run RB1s on my back wheels for more traction). In small sizes for actual rally tires, DMacks are the go-to, but I think they only go down to 13" sizes....
My suggestion: move up to 13" or even 14" aluminum wheel, order Maxsports from UK. YMMV.
Softer sidewalls perform better though.
Sidewall stiffness doesn't affect debeading as much as the way the bead of the tire is designed, and air pressure, and driving style.
In 8 seasons of rallycross I've never had a debead. I think you had two thelast time we were in an event together haha ;)
A matter of opinion when it comes to softer side walls. And highly dependent on course conditions. I've managed to win East Coast championship 2 Northeast division championships and to DC regional championships almost entirely on actual gravel tires. That is just one data point, but I don't think blanket statements are worthwhile to make since car set-up and driving style and course conditions all affects Tire choice
i have debeaded a RWD twice in my life and you were there for the first one (and it was after like eight seasons for me...). Snow tires, low on air due to a leak, hit a rut, and off it went.
I am not saying gravel tires are bad, but I do believe that soft sidewalls are better. You can run more tire pressure for the same amount of ground conformity, if that makes sense? Like 35psi with soft sidewall rally retreads feels as compliant as 20psi in rally tires, except without all the rolling resistance.
The Falken tires I had on my Golf were hilarious. I had to drive it on the road once, and it felt like I lost about 50 horsepower. Since I was starting with 100, this was crucial.
Knurled. said:
irish44j said:
Knurled. said:
irish44j said:As to the RB1s - they are a good rallycross tire in terms of traction, but are definitely NOT a "true" rally tire as they have a much softer sidewall. The upsdie for rally-x is that they weigh much less than a real rally tire (I run RB1s on my back wheels for more traction). In small sizes for actual rally tires, DMacks are the go-to, but I think they only go down to 13" sizes....
My suggestion: move up to 13" or even 14" aluminum wheel, order Maxsports from UK. YMMV.
Softer sidewalls perform better though.
Sidewall stiffness doesn't affect debeading as much as the way the bead of the tire is designed, and air pressure, and driving style.
In 8 seasons of rallycross I've never had a debead. I think you had two thelast time we were in an event together haha ;)
A matter of opinion when it comes to softer side walls. And highly dependent on course conditions. I've managed to win East Coast championship 2 Northeast division championships and to DC regional championships almost entirely on actual gravel tires. That is just one data point, but I don't think blanket statements are worthwhile to make since car set-up and driving style and course conditions all affects Tire choice
i have debeaded a RWD twice in my life and you were there for the first one (and it was after like eight seasons for me...). Snow tires, low on air due to a leak, hit a rut, and off it went.
I am not saying gravel tires are bad, but I do believe that soft sidewalls are better. You can run more tire pressure for the same amount of ground conformity, if that makes sense? Like 35psi with soft sidewall rally retreads feels as compliant as 20psi in rally tires, except without all the rolling resistance.
The Falken tires I had on my Golf were hilarious. I had to drive it on the road once, and it felt like I lost about 50 horsepower. Since I was starting with 100, this was crucial.
again, I'm just noting that it's all course and condition-dependent (and car setup-dependent). I generally run Maxsports on my back tires for that compliance (and sharp Dmacks up front for turn-in bite). Some places we run around here definitely are advantageous to having a softer sidewall. The change in local rules hase changed the equation as well. It used to be if you debeaded, too bad. Enjoy your slow time. Now a debead gets you time to change tires and a re-run, so there's really no penalty for airing way down and not caring, even on snow tires.
Also, try doing 300 miles of on-road transits with gravel tires (NEFR) in a ~130hp car. Trust me, I know how heavy they are :)
In reply to irish44j :
CHANGE tires? Air it back up and get back out there, man! 
Knurled. said:
In reply to irish44j :
CHANGE tires? Air it back up and get back out there, man!
I'm not speaking for me.
I'm mostly talking about all the understeer pigs that do ;)
In reply to irish44j :
Fast RWD cars understeer That way you can throw it into a corner without having to worry about looping it.
Knurled. said:
In reply to irish44j :
Fast RWD cars understeer That way you can throw it into a corner without having to worry about looping it.
Pretty sure the last time I fully looped it in my car was at GLDIvs back in 2014 - price you pay for getting the draw for 2nd car off in wet grass....Still pissed about doing that, seeing as I lost by like 1 second in the end to Kevin lol....
irish44j said:
Knurled. said:
In reply to irish44j :
Fast RWD cars understeer That way you can throw it into a corner without having to worry about looping it.
Pretty sure the last time I fully looped it in my car was at GLDIvs back in 2014 - price you pay for getting the draw for 2nd car off in wet grass....Still pissed about doing that, seeing as I lost by like 1 second in the end to Kevin lol....
If you're not fast on wet grass, you're not fast on anything 
bluej
UberDork
11/29/18 8:36 p.m.
irish44j said:
Knurled. said:
In reply to irish44j :
Fast RWD cars understeer That way you can throw it into a corner without having to worry about looping it.
Pretty sure the last time I fully looped it in my car was at GLDIvs back in 2014 - price you pay for getting the draw for 2nd car off in wet grass....Still pissed about doing that, seeing as I lost by like 1 second in the end to Kevin lol....
Until I got to the "in my car" I was about to be like ummmmmm Josh?? :p
bluej said:
irish44j said:
Knurled. said:
In reply to irish44j :
Fast RWD cars understeer That way you can throw it into a corner without having to worry about looping it.
Pretty sure the last time I fully looped it in my car was at GLDIvs back in 2014 - price you pay for getting the draw for 2nd car off in wet grass....Still pissed about doing that, seeing as I lost by like 1 second in the end to Kevin lol....
Until I got to the "in my car" I was about to be like ummmmmm Josh?? :p
Oh, I've definitely looped other peoples' cars haha.....but my car is much more balanced than other e30s with less power = harder to spin.
Knurled. said:
irish44j said:
Knurled. said:
In reply to irish44j :
Fast RWD cars understeer That way you can throw it into a corner without having to worry about looping it.
Pretty sure the last time I fully looped it in my car was at GLDIvs back in 2014 - price you pay for getting the draw for 2nd car off in wet grass....Still pissed about doing that, seeing as I lost by like 1 second in the end to Kevin lol....
If you're not fast on wet grass, you're not fast on anything
Also, if you're not first, you're last.
