Ford people/engine builders. I need your input.

So one of my life long dreams is to do a lap of America in a badass car. I'm talking all the way around the perimeter. And by badass I mean something that is more at home on the racetrack than main street. And from the first time I saw one, I knew it had to be this. Now I know that it would be very easy to just plug a modern engine in it and enjoy good MPGs while motoring around the country. But that kind of defeats the experience I'm going for.

Now, even as anti Ford as I am, the puritan in me could never put something besides a Ford engine in one. So, I'm trying to figure out the best way to meet my goals which are as follows;

1. Nasty Idle. I mean earth shaking, window rattling, intimidating as hell nasty idle. When I roll up to a red light I want the world to look like a blur because the car is shaking so much.

2. 20-25 MPGs while cruising at 55-80 MPH.

3. A strong pull all the way to redline.

And that's it. Don't really care about HP and TQ numbers. Lap times and quarter mile times don't matter. It's all about the experience over the numbers.

I'm still stuck in the 60's when it comes to engine building and tuning. I know a big giant lumpy cam will get what I want at idle but will fall short on all my other goals.

So, is there a way to accomplish this?

I don't see how you can do all that with the same engine. A "nasty" idle usually means a cam with high lift and overlap along with high compression and that doesn't work well for high MPGs.

I think a 302 size engine is going to come closest to what you want. Cam it, add compression, and using a trans with an overdrive top gear and you should do OK MPG wise. If you use fuel injection you can get an engine that will run OK with that radical cam. It will just need dyno tuning to achieve that.

You won't get 1 and 2. Sorry. That badass idle happens because the engine is stumbling over itself trying to stay alive and mostly not failing at choking on its own exhaust gases. It's practicaly the same operating conditions as cruising down the highway - high vacuum, lowish RPM.

Going with a smaller engine will help because it will need to be loaded down more to make cruise HP so it will run half decently.

Y'know, I keep thinking that it would not be so difficult to make a "lumpy idle" program for EFI that cuts injection from, say, 2 out of 3 cycles, then progresses to 3 out of 5 and then 1 out of 3 and then 1 out of 5 and then it hits on all eight cylinders as you come out of idle. It still doesn't address needing to have early exhaust opening for that "PAH!" when the exhaust valve opens, the decent compression to help the engine really labor under its own load, but it's a start.

You also need big displacement for that bowling balls in a clothes dryer sound. A did a 604 that sounded perfect for that. Probably wouldn't get 20mpg though And a circumnavigation of the country would probably require two or three sets of lifters, because roller cams big enough to feed a beast like that need very stout springs to control them. Spring technology is coming up to where they seem to last sort-of okay but roller lifters are the wear item and they can wear frighteningly fast...

What if I bumped the MPG requirements down to 15-20?

I'd be fine with flipping a switch on the dash to initiate awesome idle mode.

I personally don't think the lumpy cam and mileage is so hard to deal with as long as we're talking highway numbers. City is going to hurt a lot, though. I'd probably just build an Explorer-based 302 and use an MS and tune tune tune. The exhaust system would probably need a time and engineering. Keep the EDIS and spend some time on the phone with Crane or Comp Cams and talk about your goals. I think I'd be looking for some full roller lifters as well to cut friction.

A cam that's working well with the rest of the engine at ~2250 RPM could still have a bit of an idle at ~700, I think, and return good numbers at the pump. Alfa would probably be a good person to ask. I had a pile of cam in my 2.6 V6 Capri and it had a funky idle and still returned mid-30's if I kept the highway speeds to under 70. With a T5, better aerodynamics, and modern engine management (vs. a progressive twin-choke Weber and points ignition) I think it'd do really well at the pump. So I want to think your goals actually do work.

The engine is this is a worked over 302.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIPN3V_pRvU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgnbHVZRfTU

Nick asking about a Ford???!!! OMG, that explains it!!!

When you posted this, the Earth rotated backwards for a split second.

In reply to Toyman01:

DaveEstey wrote: The engine is this is a worked over 302. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIPN3V_pRvU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgnbHVZRfTU

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about lumpy engines...

Search for popcorn popper finds me this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ANak8V7bo0

I wonder how they got something with a cam that mild to run like that... Probably way lots of ignition timing at idle.

While on the subject of idles, I'm all but convinced that Van Halen used an idling Mopar 383 with a 'Purple' cam as the inspiration for the drums at the beginning of Hot For Teacher.

yeah, all of those don't mix. Overlap is the biggest contributor to lope, and also the biggest part of MPG (as far as cam numbers are concerned). Lope also means intake charge dilution in the lower RPM range, so the #3 is out as well. It won't pull hard until higher RPMs where it is taking advantage of the overlap.

EFI might be your friend. Choose a cam with a relatively small duration, then keep the LSA small. The smaller duration will eke out a couple MPGs and the narrow LSA will provide some lope. From there, use the ECM to pull out some spark advance at idle to add more lope. Oversized injectors can help add lope since they aren't very accurate at very small pulsewidths. Of course, the engine will be a real dog.

How about one of the newer engines with VVT? The cam-in-cam kind? There are already aftermarket computers for the VVT. The factory programing widens the LSA at lower RPMs to promote cylinder pressures down low, then narrows it up at higher RPMs to use more scavenging during the reduced time it has to evacuate the cylinder. You could program it to keep a narrower LSA at idle and give you some lope, then widen it at cruise to make a little more MPGs. Unfortunately there really isn't much out there with it yet, so you're looking at a hefty investment.

I think your best bet is to suck it up on the MPG. Grab a cam that gives you good lope without destroying MPG, and then use the EFI tricks above to give you more lope. Also, if you have a roller lifter, ask your cam grinder about a faster EO ramp with a slightly later opening point. Letting a little more exhaust pressure build in the cylinder, then opening the valve faster "spits" the exhaust charge giving the audio illusion of lope. That was a little trick I learned from Mondello.

Take a listen to this link below. This is a CompCams audio file. This is a vaguely close estimation of the sound that my LS6 6.0L will have, and in a 3000-lb car with a double-OD T56, I expect 11-12 mpg on the highway.

http://www.compcams.com/Base/MultiMedia/SoundBytes/Cams/XER-273HR-14_LS1-54-444-11.mp3

Overdrive and a spreadbore carb will get you the efficiency(and plenty of flow for the pull to redline), not sure if a big lumpy cam for a big lumpy idle will go well with that though. I'd think a roller cam 302 would probably work out well.

I know if you set one idle mix screw way off from the opposite side, you will get a faux lumpy idle.

Ford Coyote and some exhaust cut-outs will fill the bill. Just dump the headers when you are in traffic or cruising main street in small-town.

Gen 3 viper motor with a cam and a huge rear gear will pull 15-18mpg in that body easy. It's as light as the ffr daytonas are you might get 20mpg

I have heard of 351W with T56s and a set of World Windsor heads do what you want. The frontal area on that car is small so it should be doable.

You can lope the E36 M3 out of it with a cam and be OK. Us a Mega Squirt for the FI or get real fancy and do a carb set up, but probably won't get the mpgs with the carburetors.

If you drive it like the sound and looks will want you to drive it, 10 MPG will be hard.

I said hard snicker

I'm imagining that highway cruising in the 20mpg range will counter act the various bouts of hoon induced 4-6mpg and end up with a trip average of 12-13mpgs.

But it's not really about the mpgs anyway. Just a goal to shoot for.

with a standalone you can fake lope.... typically the ignition map draws from 4 cells... it floats around a bit in the neighboring cells. If you have a few cells more than 4 degrees off, the engine will have a lope caused by changing ignition timing based on how its tuned.....

I too like a small block Ford. Aftermarket heads for better uniformity of chambers and flow.

Badass car needs badass engine
Daytona coupe and you're thinking about gas mileage??? How about a 427 windsor?

In reply to oldtin:

Of course you are correct sir. I stand corrected and apologize for my laps in judgment

thinking outside the box....

would a 2JZGTE produce the power and mileage required

2JZs, like most Japanese engines, are genetically incapable of cackling and sounding generally evil at idle. They either sound civilized like a beige Camry, or they sound positively asthmatic, wheezing through a big turbo and a 4" exhaust like some sort of big vacuum cleaner.

(I said most, not all. Rotaries are boss.)

I'm no pro, but I would pick a cam with a duration@050 that suits the rpm range you want (226°? 230°??), then tighten the lobe centers like 108° or even better - 106°, then advance the cam to 104° or 103°, and raise the compression to whatever is recommended by the cam grinder (I'd guess at least 10:1 or more).

I have a 231° @050/.470"/108°LSA/104°ICL cam in my daily driver (350/10.9:1), and it sounds a lot more snotty if I lean the idle out significantly (but then the Rochester develops an off-idle hesitation that lean).

It would sound even better with the wee glasspacks on the side of that Daytona.

Whats the budget?

I dont think it will be that hard to accomplish 1 and 2 with something in the 300-400ci inch range with EFI and lots of tuning. For lope get a cam with a low LSA in the 106-108 range and run a lot of compression and it will chop like crazy.

You have to set the gearing up to run a low rpm while cruising, which is pretty easy with a T56 or most of the other tremec 6 speeds.

Then you have to find a really good tuner and they have to put in work to get it to run at that low rpm on the hwy without getting a ton of cam surge.

I ran a 230/245 .541/.546 112 LSA in a 350 LT1 for 80K miles back by a T56 and 3.42 and 3.73 I got a little cam surge below about 1700 so I either had to go faster to use 6th or use 5th and it would get about 20mpg on the hwy, on a mail order tune.

I have seen people with way bigger cams behave much better but it takes a lot of tuning, on the street and on the dyno.

Here is a cam on a 107 LSA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vQIKijH4GE

Comp (I think it was Comp Cams) pretty much made a whole line of cams based off sound called the Thumpr, last I looked they were all ground on a 107.

Thumpr cams have very asymmetric design. I think the cam card for a 388 we put in a Ford Sedan had figures like 233 intake, 247 duration. LOTS more exhaust than intake. Don't remember the intake centerline or lobe separation. It still wanted a 3000rpm stall speed converter to work worth a flip.

It definitely was a "popcorn popper" even with only 9.5:1 compression. (Had to be that low because of the supercharger) I wouldn't say the actual performance was stellar, probably because the supercharger was choking flow more than actually helping. But it whined and crackled and sounded mean which is what you want in a street rod.

The F303, X303 and Z303 Ford Racing cams have a pretty good chop to them. I'm pretty sure you can run the F303 in an otherwise completely stock '87-'93 5.0. It will work in a '94 and '95 but supposedly the computers in those will throw a E36 M3 fit at anything that has more than 266 degrees of duration. That's just what I've heard. Snag an '89-'93 5.0 (mass air) and stab in an F cam, you'll have a lopey idle and near stock fuel economy.

F303

Here's some popcorn, TFS stage 3:

Rumpity Rump

Trick Flow Stage 3 cam specs:

Rough idle, strong top-end power. 3,000 to 3,500 rpm stall converter with 3.90 to 4.11 gears recommended. 3,200-6,800 Operating RPM Range Compression ratio: 10.0:1 to 11.5:1.

Duration @ .050" (degrees) - 236 intake/248 exhaust Cam Lift (intake/exhaust) - .359"/.372" Lift w/ 1.6 rocker (intake/exhaust) - .574"/.595" Lobe seperation (degrees) - 110°

Couple that with a long rod (5.4") short block and AFR 185 heads and you'll have yourself a screamer!