Formula 1 2024 Season

I think he wants Max to go to Mercedes next year - but while the Benzer is better than it has been the last two years, didn't they finish again pretty much where they averaged last season?

I don't see putting Max behind the wheel of a Benz as the instant race winner......but who knows? 

I think he wants Max to go to Mercedes next year - but while the Benzer is better than it has been the last two years, didn't they finish again pretty much where they averaged last season?

I don't see putting Max behind the wheel of a Benz as the instant race winner......but who knows? 

I think a large part of Mercedes finishing in 2nd last year was due to the poor finishing of Ferrari and the drop off of performance mid season at Aston.

With the Big Macs pretty much sorted, the Ferraris no longer eating their tires, it will be a tougher fight this year and next.

MiniDave said:

I think he wants Max to go to Mercedes next year - but while the Benzer is better than it has been the last two years, didn't they finish again pretty much where they averaged last season?

I don't see putting Max behind the wheel of a Benz as the instant race winner......but who knows? 

Neither do I. He's an amazing driver, but so is Lewis Hamilton, and he hasn't been able to wring a win out of the Merc since 2022. And even when Merc were at their strongest, they didn't dominate like RB did last year.

The more that comes out about Jos' involvement, the more all this garbage makes sense. He's really not a good guy. I don't care for Horner, either, but you can't deny what he and Newey have accomplished with that team. They were winning championships when Max was in grade school. If I'm RB management and I have to choose between the two, I'm picking Horner. No disrepect to Max, but there are several other drivers in the field who could win championships in that car.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

No disrepect to Max, but there are several other drivers in the field who could win championships in that car.

Has anyone run the numbers of what the 2023 WDC looks like with Max removed? I'm assuming Perez would win that "F1.5" championship, but by how much?

I'm not Max's biggest fan, but I think his domination is a combination of the car and driver otherwise there would have been more RB 1-2 finishes last year. There were only 6. Heck, Max and Lewis were 1-2 three times, or four if you count Texas. Checo's not a terrible driver, but if the car is that good then he should have been on one of the top two steps of the podium more often.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:

The more that comes out about Jos' involvement, the more all this garbage makes sense. He's really not a good guy. I don't care for Horner, either, but you can't deny what he and Newey have accomplished with that team. They were winning championships when Max was in grade school. If I'm RB management and I have to choose between the two, I'm picking Horner. No disrepect to Max, but there are several other drivers in the field who could win championships in that car.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Horner's either, but at least he was never charged with attempted murder.

Keith Tanner said:

Has anyone run the numbers of what the 2023 WDC looks like with Max removed? I'm assuming Perez would win that "F1.5" championship, but by how much?

I'm not Max's biggest fan, but I think his domination is a combination of the car and driver otherwise there would have been more RB 1-2 finishes last year. There were only 6. Heck, Max and Lewis were 1-2 three times, or four if you count Texas. Checo's not a terrible driver, but if the car is that good then he should have been on one of the top two steps of the podium more often.

I'm not saying you just drop any other driver in there. I'm talking about the top tier guys like Lewis, Fred, Lando, and maybe Charles. I think if you replace Max with one of those guys, they still win the title. The point being that, as good as Max is, it's easier to replace him than it is to replace the management/design team that has created two dominant cars over two multi-year periods in the last 15 years.

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

Fair point. I guess the question is where Checo falls in that assessment!

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

Fair point. I guess the question is where Checo falls in that assessment!

FWIW Checo was mostly beating his teammates until Max showed up.

2011: Lost to Kobayashi by 12 points

2012: BEAT Kobayashi by 6 points

2013: Lost to Button by 24 points

2014: Lost to Hulkenberg by 37 points

2015: BEAT Hulkenberg by 20 points

2016: BEAT Hulkenberg by 29 points

2017: BEAT Ocon by 23 points

2018: BEAT Ocon by 13 points

2019: BEAT Stroll by 31 points

2020: BEAT Stroll by 50 points

2021: Lost to Max by 205.5 points

2022: Lost to Max by 149 points

2023: Lost to Max by 290 points

Keith Tanner said:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

Fair point. I guess the question is where Checo falls in that assessment!

Well he got 2nd in 2023 by over 50 points to 3rd. In 2022 he narrowly missed 2nd by 3 points. So I'd say Checo would probably still win for Red Bull if Max left. I do think another top-tier driver would fall somewhere in between him and Max in that car.

I think the reality is when at the office, most if not all top people in F1 teams, will probably come across as a bit of an A-hole.  No one gets to the very top in F1 either as a driver, leader, engineer etc. without 100% commitment and self belief, that pretty much defines someone who probably comes off as an ass to those on the outside.  But while non of us know the truth behind Horners recent issues at RB, the 'leaked' screen grabs seem to show a two way relationship that resulted in Horner frequently turning Japanese in the bathroom.  'Nice', decent behavior?  No, but it appears to have been consensual in both directions, an lets face it, it's an issue many people have displayed in their personal lives.  Jos on the other hand is a piece of E36 M3 human being.  Convicted of assault (victim had fractured skull), avoided five years in prison.  Accused, but not convicted of assaulting both his ex wife and girlfriend, convicted on disobaying protection orders against girlfried etc.  He's a POS.  Max isn't my favorite driver, but he's come a long way from the brash, reactive, brat who could never take responsibility for his actions, into undoubtedly the best driver of the moment.  No of all time, but right now he's hands down the best driver in the best car.  I don't think Lewis has fully recovered from losing the 2021 WDC and is now going to be on the outside for the rest of the year until he moves to Ferrari.  If I ran a team that employed Max, condition #1 in his contract would be 'No contact of any form with Jos from the Tues before a race until the Monday after.  Condition 2 would be Jos does not enter any building or track associated with the team or race weekends.  The guy is an ass who gives motorsport a bad name.  

I haven't been able to find any of the leaked documents.  Can you post a link or elaborate on what happened with Horner? 

Basically had an affair with an RB employee. Weak flirting and possible innuendo from both parties. Looked to be consentual based on flirty texts and that the female called Horner late at night...so not completely instigated by just Horner. Talks of exploding, awkward selfies from Horner...female asking if Horner can do a split? Weird E36 M3

Part of me feels like if he's having an affair it's not our business, and I'm sure he's not the only one in the paddock. Not saying it's okay to do, but should we really be this deep into their personal lives? But then I remember at a previous job the manager had an affair with a direct subordinate, wife caught them doing it at work, and the manager and mistress were fired...not sure if it was because of the affair or because it was at work 

I think a few things here. 
1- if I was any TP my only condition to putting Max in the car is Jos is not in the garage. Other than that anything he wants. 
2- Checo is a great mid field driver, able to get the most out of a car that leaves some speed to be desired, good tire management. I'm not sure if that's the same drive(r) as being too dog at the pointy end. 
3- with the RB car of last year and this year there are probably 6-8 drivers that would have won the WC, would they have wrecked everyone like Max? Probably not. 
4- the 2026 rule set seems to favor motors again. If aero is less important and motors are where it's at maybe team Max is willing to give up the 2025 title to have the 2026-2029 titles?

In reply to Hoppps :

The only "issue" I can see with a work affair would be the use of Red Bull systems to further the affair. It's now frowned upon to use company assets for an affair. That's what personal email and texts are for. And I'm sure Jos is trying to use that to his advantage. 
 

So ironic how an convicted and accused abuser is trying to blow up a team for that little of corporate abuse. 

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

No, but it appears to have been consensual in both directions,

Consensual with your boss is a sticky question, because of the power that one wields over the other.  She apparently felt bad enough about it afterwards to file the complaint, although whether that's a later realization of what was happening, or just revenge for being dumped we don't know.  One of many reasons why this is a bad idea.

But yes, I agree that none of this holds a candle to Jos Verstappen.  His wikipedia page reads as someone who gets angry, can't hold his temper, and resorts to physical violence.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

No, but it appears to have been consensual in both directions,

Consensual with your boss is a sticky question, because of the power that one wields over the other.  She apparently felt bad enough about it afterwards to file the complaint, although whether that's a later realization of what was happening, or just revenge for being dumped we don't know.  One of many reasons why this is a bad idea.

But yes, I agree that none of this holds a candle to Jos Verstappen.  His wikipedia page reads as someone who gets angry, can't hold his temper, and resorts to physical violence.

Was it she who filed a complaint or was it a third party?  Not saying that it makes it right or wrong either way.

If you read all the messages, it was consensual at first but then there are requests from her to stop (he didn't) and requests from him to delete the conversations (which means he knew he was wrong and wanted the evidence erased). Given the complaint of "controlling behavior", the actual problem might have been what happened afterwards in the work environment. There are some hints of that in the messages, about her getting treated differently. 

Where does one find all these "leaks" to read?

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Ah I didn't see that. I only saw one collage of the texts before most of it was taken down. That puts a lot more perspective on the complaint and issue.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

And it's one thing that Red Bull in Asia is ok with that, it's another for Austria and/or England. 
 

Sucks that it's a human like Jos that is pressing this issue. 

This whole thing is all speculation and gossip at this point. Wake me up when there are actual consequences or proof. 

maschinenbau said:

This whole thing is all speculation and gossip at this point. Wake me up when there are actual consequences or proof. 

Hey, what do you expect us to do, actually watch the races? 

MiniDave said:

Where does one find all these "leaks" to read?

I believe this is the drive in question. I found it by digging through google searches and discarding a bunch of obvious spam sites. It reads like something legit, but that's as far as I can verify.  Since it can be found with google searches, I don't see a problem with posting it here. 
https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1OlV2wb51s1WhjLFq0Lsp4inRU60qvdhY

"Proof" is going to be a high bar, unless one of the two parties steps up and says "yes, this is our communication". I suspect that if you knew the Red Bull staff, you could easily identify the woman involved. There are enough hints. 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Agree, it wouldn't be too hars to identify the person involved.

also, anyone looking at it be forewarned of a potentially fallic picture. I was not expecting that.

Edit: just read the files in the link. For now we have to say "if they are real" but it seems fairly obvious. Seemed consentual at first and then the female didn't want to continue but Horner kept pushing. 

One thing that complicates things considerably more is that sexual harassment is illegal in the UK.