Formula Kludge

I've been teasing this around in my head for weeks, meaning to get a nice, concise clear version down but I never seem to get around to it. I'm going to just puke it out and see if anyone salutes.

A couple of years ago I read "Vukovich" and marveled at how just after WWII they had racing at the local ovals around the Los Angeles area every night of the week and had tens of thousands of people pay to watch. The trick was, according to the book, that anyone could build a car for ridiculously cheap money and just show up and race.

Conventional Wisdom is that there are already far too many open wheel formula classes. Generally, I'd agree, but there's no rough equivalent to the dreaded "Hobby Stock" class at your local dirt/pavement oval. While you could probably build a Formula Kludge and go race somewhere, somehow, there's no officially recognized class that would allow what I have in mind.

So I'm thinking, generally, that FK is a homebuilt to SCCA road racing safety specs (steel tubing thickness/diameter, fuel cell, etc.) The overall intent is to enable someone to build a Kludge for as little money as possible. The method is to embrace the GRM 20XX Challenge format but for formula cars. No aero allowed, no wings, undertrays, fences, dams, spoilers, nuthin'--all you get is mechanical grip. You can streamline but that's it. You'd use the FSAE rules as inspiration to "equalize" various powerplants or fuels. For example, maybe you use a concept where your car "build sheet" gets 1000 points to play with. The way it would work is something like this: If you use racing tires, that costs 200 points but if you use street tires and it costs you 100 points. If your car uses an aluminum monocoque, that costs you 500 points but a steel tube frame costs you 300 points. OEM engine costs you 200 points but a ported and blueprinted engine costs 300 points. You get the general idea. You'd have to fine tune the points over time to minimize cost and maintain competition.

Depending on what FK comes up with, you could then allow all the other recognized classes to participate if they choose. If a Kludge is roughly comparable in speed to a Formula Barber or a Formula Ford or a Formula Vee, then let those others join in the fun. The idea would be to get some cars on the grid and see some diversity in mechanicals and concepts.

Perhaps you could help to keep the costs low by having a claiming rule. Let's say the car's hardware cost is restricted to $2K per the GRM format but the actual claim price of the car is $5K (or $7K or $10K or whatever) to account for labor. You have to finish a race to put a claim in on the the winning car and you have to swap the car with which you finished the race with the winner's. Maybe with every race your car goes unclaimed it increases the claim price by 5% to account for your extra labor for each race.

I could easily see Kludge races at your local paved oval of 1 mile or less. I don't know what the rest of the country is doing, but here in MO we've lost Gateway and I-70 Speedway due to the economy. If you could get enough people interested, a few club races a year might make the difference between a track staying open and closing.

So my question is this: If you were going to grab a sheet of paper and start laying out a Kludge, what would you start with? Miata suspension held together by a steel tubing frame? There's no reason a Kludge would have to be mid-engined, you could put the motor out front and use a Sprint or mini-sprint chassis for that matter. Motorcycle engine with a chain drive? Or put a conventional front/front powerplant in the back of a tube frame?

Anyone else think it's got some appeal?

I do think it has some appeal.

I like the idea of the apparent mechanical freedom seen at UK Hillclimbs. We see some wacky stuff in A Mod autocross, but there isn't a lot (outside of the challenge) which doesn't get very specific about what you can and can't do. Er, that I know of. That's an important caveat.

Check out the UK's Formula 750. The rules are a lot more specific than what I think you're getting at, but I do like that it's a formula class genuinely on a budget, and with a very real possibility of DIYing it which I have the impression isn't true for most people of "normal" resources in most of the existing formula classes in the U.S....

I think I'd be thinking F/F drivetrain in the middle with Miata front bits, with a steel frame. Or that's where I'd start. Obviously, I'd want to read the rules first...

What I'm curious about is whether any of the existing sanctioning bodies have any interest in such a notion. It sounds very un-SCCA, but I don't know enough about the others to guess at whether they'd want it.

Well, the problem is that it might straddle a couple of different genres. You could race your FK at both a 5/8 mile oval or at a legitimate road course. Kinda like having a hobby stock class in SCCA (which I don't think exists). You might even be able to autocross a Kludge.

The appeal (to me) is that there are a minimum or rules. It's pretty much a "run whatcha brung" concept with $ as the limiting factor (either in your build sheet or through the claim rule). I'm wondering if you might need to specify it by fuel (gas or alcohol). The trick is to limit the speeds for the venues (RR or oval) by the $ through the rules.

My thought was that a company like Flyin' Miata might have interest if they offer something like tube A-arms for Miata uprights or comparable Corvette suspension if it can be acquired cheaply enough through salvage sources.

Personally, I see the FSAE rules as the core inspiration for the thing as they're open to just about any possibilities.

I love the idea of cheap open wheel racing. Have you looked at Formula 1st? http://www.formula-first.org/

It seems cheaper than FV and I want one:-)

two civic hatch front suspensions with the engine in the back. copy front subframe layout in the back for the engine. the "rear-ward" front subframe would obviously have full suspension attached, and the engine mounted as it would in a ff layout.
?? just what popped into my head
i have had mid-engine hondas on the brain lately though. lol

SCCA's problem with this would be the speed differentials with the class. We used to have this problem when our Sports Racer classes were mostly homebuilts. There'd have to be some sort of percentage rule (i.e., cars must have lap times within XX% of the pole-sitter's speed) to keep the other classes in the group happy. The alternative would be if they could be given their own race group, but that's a really hard sell..

Unless 300 people build one, and show up every weekend. With the economy wrecked, entries are down. A lot of our cheaper classes have a bad case of "rules creep", and ain't as cheap as they used to be. A class people could actually afford to build/run would help with that.

And kudos to Sultan for mentioning Formula First. I think that class has a lot of potential. Used Vee chassis are everywhere, and it's a whole lot easier to get ahold of the 1600 dual port vs. the older engine. I think the move to use FF slicks was a good one, too.

It's called FV.

wonder if adding a minimum lbs/hp ratio and a minimum weight would help with the speed differential? a field of 7.5lbs/hp, 900lbs cars (works out nicely for 120whp) with no aero, how much speed differential could there really be? I know that the whole "how ____ could there/it be?" question is basically inviting failure and/or defeat and/or severe problems, but still...

A new formula class, I dunno.. not dissin' it at all tho, sounds very interesting. The ovals in these parts lost the dwarf, legend and modlites a while back, except now for the tours. Entry level used was sub $5K and that didn't even stick.

IMO, most racers will shy away from home built formula chassis unless its in pre-engineered kit form, now that might be cool... and cheap(er).

Or like others said, there's a lot of older uncompetitive cars out there that could use the dust knocked off of them... old F500, FV or FF. I wouldn't know where to start as to how to come up w/ a formula for them to race equally together tho except for MC based engines, weight and tire rules maybe. That could bring a lot of retired chassis back to the track.

Things like Formula First and FV (and F500?) are probably the best answers, in terms of simplicity with existing, theoretically-affordable chassis and so forth.

I have issues with the level of not-real-racecar hardware involved, though. VW bug suspensions are, however effective they may be in bludgeoned into being in this guise, stupid. And the F500 rubber-sprung suspension is... odd.

Nothing specifically wrong with these things in terms of preventing them from providing affordable racing, but I'd rather DIY a "real" double-A-arm arrangement with normal springs and dampers. More information is available about such a setup, and the lessons learned are more applicable to other cars, if that's even something this class would concern itself with. I.e. is it a stepping stone or its own little world?

I'm not sure how to ensure the DIY-ness of it and to keep to a more normal formula car suspension layout without having it (d)evolve into an arms race with Ohlins shocks and so forth. How to separate the "real A-arms" design from the "real money" implementation. With the FSAE as an inspiration if not an actual model, what if production motorcycle shocks were required? No Ohlins/Penske/etc, only Showa/Kayaba/etc bits off non-special-edition bikes? (Not to get mired in details already, but while I know people use bike shocks on cars, are they really appropriate? Are the relationship to springs and travel about right? And the jounce/rebound relationships?). I know this should be covered by claiming rules, but they always give me a certain worry...

They might not come up for sale all that often, but old Formula SAE cars rarely go for more than a couple grand. If you've got regular access to a lathe, a mill, and a welder you are on pretty equal footing to most teams.

My brother (who works for one of the Big 4 Japanese motorcycle companies with offices in California) read this thread and threw in an observation. He said that since the Big 4 have gone to 4 stroke Moto-X bikes there has been a decided loss of participation in Moto-X and a significant (beyond the economic problems) slump in Moto-X bike sales. He pins that in part on the change from cheap and easy to maintain 2 stroke engines to complicated/expensive 4 stroke engines. The CW at the office is that the old timers are puzzled at how, as a demographic, young adults today have an apparent lack of interest in learning how to make things work. Although I don't have specific personal experience in this, I think my anecdotal information agrees with this. Kids (sub 25 years old) are far more interested in their X-Box and their I-Phone than turning wrenches (present company excluded, of course).

Although I heartily embrace Formula 1st, it doesn't have the appeal of what I like about Kludge, that being a learning exercise. If you've got a Vee, and you learn how to set it up, does that really give you as broad an understanding of vehicle dynamics as would learning how to make that engine (right over there, in the corner of the garage and free) work in a chassis that you built using independent (or 4 link, or whatever) suspension? It's one of the reasons I like the Locost concept. I guess it's the difference between building a Factory Five Cobra and cobbling something together into a Locost. Both venues have their merits and I'm not saying one is inherently superior to the other, but I see an awful lot of racing classes that more resemble the Factory Five philosophy than the Locost philosophy. I'm not sure I see ANY of the latter, really, other than FSAE.

Just out of curiosity, do FSAE rules prohibit FSAE Teams from selling cars or parts based on their designs?

Ransom, I think the cost controls (e.g. claiming) would go a long way to prevent what you're talking about. Nobody's going to pay big bucks on a set of shocks to watch them walk away at the end of the race. That's one of the reasons I was adamant about aero. While aero has increased raw speed over the last 40 years all it's done is generate a huge black hole for horsepower and costs. If you kill the aero effect, the maximum useable hp limit through mechanical grip drops to manageable levels and the cars actually need to be driven.

By the way, if anyone wants to discuss this offline, please PM me.

Personally, I LOVE the idea of a race series running both ovals and road races with a mix of FF, FV, Micro-sprints, Lightning Sprints, F500, Barbers, FK, rebuilt FSAE, what have you. Think of the noise...

Formula Kludge sounds alot like what I already do.

Kart Racing. My chassis was <$400.00, my engine $325.00 race ready, ($200.00 claim), We have a weekend's worth of racing at venues like, Roebling, Talladega Grand Prix, CMP (on the big track once a year), Daytona .

We run Average laps at Roebling of 1.36, spend the weekend at the track for about $200.00 (that's pit pass, practices and racing for 2 days). Set of tires cost <$200.00.

BUT..... I'd LOVE to have a chance to pilot a Kludge and seriously consider building one, But there are ALOT of similar formats, ie, google Minicup cars.

Mook wrote: BUT..... I'd LOVE to have a chance to pilot a Kludge and seriously consider building one, But there are ALOT of similar formats, ie, google Minicup cars.

Minicup cars appear to be slightly enlarged go-karts. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But I'm thinking you could build a FK roughly comparable to a F5000 car circa 1967, depending on what the final $ total is. For the cars teams have built in the GRM Challenge, I bet they could do it for $2011. I'm perfectly willing to be told I'm crazy by anyone with significant experience.

There was a home built tube frame car w/ Miata suspension bits and IIRC a 600cc MC engine in a thread here a few or so months ago. It caused quite a stir here but I can't find it yet in search. Think he was autoxing it or planning to n e way. I'd bet a lotta folks be interested in that.

Don't get me wrong.... I think the idea is sound. I like it, I'd liek to see the cap somewhere in the $1500 range. The Mini Cups I was referring to have independant front suspension, full on race seats, on board fire extinguishers, Serious roll cages, good brakes etc...etc....

What appeasl to me about the Kludge, is that you can engineer the package, build it and race it on the cheap. I LOVE open wheel cars.

Tube chassis, IFS, discs, find smal displacement 4 cyl auto enignes, 1.5 to 1.9L build a car and go race it.

Sign me up.

I have always wanted an open wheel version of a mini cup and you could also do kart tracks!

The "open wheel Mini-Cup" would seem to me to be some sort of micro or mini Sprint with a big bore motorcycle engine, wouldn't it? Would that not be the most "off the shelf" version you could build?

stroker wrote: My brother (who works for one of the Big 4 Japanese motorcycle companies with offices in California) read this thread and threw in an observation. He said that since the Big 4 have gone to 4 stroke Moto-X bikes there has been a decided loss of participation in Moto-X and a significant (beyond the economic problems) slump in Moto-X bike sales. He pins that in part on the change from cheap and easy to maintain 2 stroke engines to complicated/expensive 4 stroke engines. The CW at the office is that the old timers are puzzled at how, as a demographic, young adults today have an apparent lack of interest in learning how to make things work. Although I don't have specific personal experience in this, I think my anecdotal information agrees with this. Kids (sub 25 years old) are far more interested in their X-Box and their I-Phone than turning wrenches (present company excluded, of course). Although I heartily embrace Formula 1st, it doesn't have the appeal of what I like about Kludge, that being a learning exercise. If you've got a Vee, and you learn how to set it up, does that really give you as broad an understanding of vehicle dynamics as would learning how to make that engine (right over there, in the corner of the garage and free) work in a chassis that you built using independent (or 4 link, or whatever) suspension? It's one of the reasons I like the Locost concept. I guess it's the difference between building a Factory Five Cobra and cobbling something together into a Locost. Both venues have their merits and I'm not saying one is inherently superior to the other, but I see an awful lot of racing classes that more resemble the Factory Five philosophy than the Locost philosophy. I'm not sure I see ANY of the latter, really, other than FSAE. Just out of curiosity, do FSAE rules prohibit FSAE Teams from selling cars or parts based on their designs? Ransom, I think the cost controls (e.g. claiming) would go a long way to prevent what you're talking about. Nobody's going to pay big bucks on a set of shocks to watch them walk away at the end of the race. That's one of the reasons I was adamant about aero. While aero has increased raw speed over the last 40 years all it's done is generate a huge black hole for horsepower and costs. If you kill the aero effect, the maximum useable hp limit through mechanical grip drops to manageable levels and the cars actually need to be driven. By the way, if anyone wants to discuss this offline, please PM me. Personally, I LOVE the idea of a race series running both ovals and road races with a mix of FF, FV, Micro-sprints, Lightning Sprints, F500, Barbers, FK, rebuilt FSAE, what have you. Think of the noise...

I think the idea of a 2-stroke is fantastic! Think how cheap rebuilds would be. For people just starting out who don't know how to rebuild normal engines it would be great since they are much simpler and cost effective. They would work great on smaller frames such as FSAE cars as well.

It's been a while since I have looked at old formula cars, what are they going for these days? Where is the best website to find them at?

From what I've read and gathered, rules are what makes or breaks this type of racing. I think fewer rules would make it much more successful since most people don't want to get into the politics and language of extensive rulebooks...I know they make my head hurt.

Ever see this - they are more then your $5k budget.

Small Sports Racer Open Cockpit Chassis Center Section is now available, it's $1500 Tacked only.

they run "Stock" 600cc Bike Motors or 1600cc FWD units in the Mid. (Late Model, KIA Rio or Hyundai Accent is preferred)

All Small SR's will use Miata Front Suspension.

conner sports racers

I think you guys are reinventing the wheel - or more specifically, reinventing the kart.

Shocks? Springs? Who needs those?

Rusnak_322 wrote: Ever see this - they are more then your $5k budget. Small Sports Racer Open Cockpit Chassis Center Section is now available, it's $1500 Tacked only. they run "Stock" 600cc Bike Motors or 1600cc FWD units in the Mid. (Late Model, KIA Rio or Hyundai Accent is preferred) All Small SR's will use Miata Front Suspension. conner sports racers

They look hellishly overbuilt for what I had in mind, but I'm no engineer. On the other hand, something like that is almost precisely what I had in mind for the overall concept. If you built something like that at home (or better yet, built two or three with your buddies) I can't believe it would cost that much to make. If they build a rear clip that used a OEM rear suspension (Corvette, Miata, whatever) that went with it, the combination would almost demonstrate that it could be done for GRM level money. Then again, I don't know what the fuel cell, fillers, hydraulic lines, electrics, shocks and all the other stuff would cost.

A couple of problems I can see are the difference between the demolition derby mentality of oval racing and the somewhat more polite (at least in most cases) behavior in road racing. The other problem is the unreliability of motorcycle engines if that is what was used, I have heard from at least a couple people that its not uncommon for a brand new dwarf car engine to explode after only a couple races (or less).

Travis_K wrote: The other problem is the unreliability of motorcycle engines if that is what was used, I have heard from at least a couple people that its not uncommon for a brand new dwarf car engine to explode after only a couple races (or less).

MC engines on a bike keep oil in the pan (and pickup) during cornering because the engine leans w/ the bike... not so mounted straight up in a car chassis. In hard cornering, oil will slosh away from the pickup.

At minimum install a pan baffle and/ or accumulator plumbed into the main oil galley. I built an 0.060" aluminum baffle that sandwiched between the oil pan and engine case that decreased slosh then plumbed in a 1.5L accumulator to the main oil galley plug on a FZR for a DSR... never had a problem. Home built two-stage dry sump systems were not uncommon either. A baffle alone will probably work for a AX car but I wouldn't risk it for road race or ovals... accumulator is just cheap insurance.

Who can learn me Audi transaxles for a Kludge?