FR-S and BRZ sales are plummeting?

Will wrote:

jv8 wrote: Why do all discussions of the BRZ/FRS turn into new vs used? We get it. Used cars are a better deal and this forum leans towards used. But I hope somebody buys new cars otherwise the supply of interesting used cars will dry up!

Your last sentence answers your first. Everyone on this board always complains that there's no new affordable 2-door, RWD performance car for sale. Then when a company finally builds one of those cars, very few of the complainers are willing to step up and buy one new. Buying a used one 3-4 years later doesn't give the OEMs much of an incentive to spend tens of millions or more designing and building low-volume enthusiast cars.

I agree with you but I'm not sure how it answers my question. Let me phrase it another way... it's in the best interest of used 2-door RWD performance buyers to have lots and lots of new versions sold so they depreciate quickly. Yet the same people are on the forums crapping on new car buyers and working against sales. Not only does that hurt their used car market but it prevents new and better (STi) versions from being produced.

Whether or not they step up buy a new one... if they like that class of car they should be rooting for it and encouraging sales. Everyone wins.

I hope the twins are a success... I haven't bought one but it's not because they cost too much. I'm torn on practicality vs a hatch like the Golf R or Focus RS. I have to admit a turbo BRZ STi version might sway the decision.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Everyone keeps saying it's 60K units, but that seem to be in the US. What are the Global sales? I don't see how a sports car that is outselling the Miata can be considered a failure. Also would owners want to see 100,000 units a year sold? I'd think not seeing yourself coming in the opposite direction every day was a bonus, not a failure.

We care more about U.S. sales because products will get pulled from our market and sold everywhere else. Then, importing a car is often seen as a holy endeavor that is only for the chosen few.

I should go test drive one, and take my hockey gear to test fit. Maybe I'll fall in love.

DeadSkunk wrote:

Petrolburner wrote: The only thing I can't understand from this thread is how there are so many out there calling the twins unattractive? I think it looks great and should age very well. It merely needs the performance to back up the looks. Factory turbo system as an option is what they need. A BRZ STi if you will. I'm still going to take advantage of the depreciation of new cars instead of getting raped by it. Plenty of people buy new cars though.

I wasn't saying it's unattractive . It's more of a current convention with all the creases and edges and front end vents, etc. I don't think we'll look at one of them in 30 years and say "That was a great design". The styling elements used are found on many current models, I was hoping on something new and different. I'd say much the same about the ND Miata,too.

I always thought it reminded me of a newer version of the S2000 front end, which I also really like.

oldeskewltoy wrote: As to the uniqueness of this engine... in 2012 Cosworth barely managed to get 200hp from a Subaru 2.0 flat four N/A... that was a $20 grand engine. Now Toyota/Subaru are getting 200hp on a 2.0 flat four stock... the difference is the direct injection.

EJ20? Because the EJ architecture kinda sucks for making power compared to the new stuff. Bore/stroke is all wrong for something that needs to run cleanly so a lot of other compromises have to get made.

I can show you an SVX engine (EJ engine times 1.5) that made well over 100hp/l, and it probably didn't cost no $20k. Or $30k for that matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84924572&v=wqnuj58lFQI&x-yt-ts=1422411861

3.3l, 352hp... at the wheels... on an AWD dyno.

As regards DI, I thought the whole point of the goofy dual-fueling setup they made was that it ran on direct injection under low load and switched to port injection at high load, or something.

I haven't grown weary of the looks. While no rocket, the FR-S I drove felt sporty; not just in handling and acceleration, but in the cabin layout. It felt tailored. The MX-5 I drove right after seemed confining by comparison.

DeadSkunk wrote:

Petrolburner wrote: The only thing I can't understand from this thread is how there are so many out there calling the twins unattractive? I think it looks great and should age very well. It merely needs the performance to back up the looks. Factory turbo system as an option is what they need. A BRZ STi if you will. I'm still going to take advantage of the depreciation of new cars instead of getting raped by it. Plenty of people buy new cars though.

I wasn't saying it's unattractive . It's more of a current convention with all the creases and edges and front end vents, etc. I don't think we'll look at one of them in 30 years and say "That was a great design". The styling elements used are found on many current models, I was hoping on something new and different. I'd say much the same about the ND Miata,too.

The obvious solution is that the Twins need more rocket bunny.

Would rock all day every day and twice on Sunday.

NOHOME: My issue with the FR-S not being what I wanted it to be was when I tried to merge onto I-15 with roughly 80mph traffic. I was able to do it but it didn't make me giggle like a 16 year old in his first car like the Mazda that I bought. Another 50 to 75 HP and 75 ft-lbs of torque and that might have been the way I went.

The0retical wrote:

DeadSkunk wrote:

Petrolburner wrote: The only thing I can't understand from this thread is how there are so many out there calling the twins unattractive? I think it looks great and should age very well. It merely needs the performance to back up the looks. Factory turbo system as an option is what they need. A BRZ STi if you will. I'm still going to take advantage of the depreciation of new cars instead of getting raped by it. Plenty of people buy new cars though.

I wasn't saying it's unattractive . It's more of a current convention with all the creases and edges and front end vents, etc. I don't think we'll look at one of them in 30 years and say "That was a great design". The styling elements used are found on many current models, I was hoping on something new and different. I'd say much the same about the ND Miata,too.

The obvious solution is that the Twins need more rocket bunny. Would rock all day every day and twice on Sunday. NOHOME: My issue with the FR-S not being what I wanted it to be was when I tried to merge onto I-15 with roughly 80mph traffic. I was able to do it but it didn't make me giggle like a 16 year old in his first car like the Mazda that I bought. Another 50 to 75 HP and 75 ft-lbs of torque and that might have been the way I went.

Man, If your merge lanes move at 80 mph, I want to live where you do. I would guess the left hand lane has to be well over the ton!?

I actually bought a new vehicle after I said "If they build it, I'll buy it." That was my '05 Legacy GT Wagon. I went out and got one when I found that they were discontinuing the manual transmission after one year due to lack of sales. Now it's a sought after model, but they couldn't sell enough new.

Ironically, it's the same reason why I most likely will never buy another new Subaru. I wonder if their reputation is catching up to them, and affecting sales. It's not that they have more problems than other makes. It's that they do nothing to fix problems once discovered. They just ride out the problem throughout the part's production cycle, hope they last past warranty, and fight the customer if it doesn't.

NOHOME wrote: Man, If your merge lanes move at 80 mph, I want to live where you do. I would guess the left hand lane has to be well over the ton!?

Sadly just Southern California where everyone behind the wheel is certifiable. The posted speed limit is 70 mph but in practice its quite a bit in excess of that. Luckily the on ramps are long unlike the Poconos (Pennsylvania) whose on ramps allow you to see the traffic for maybe 30 meters before attempting to merge where I learned to drive.

When I used to motorcycle driving the 15 was like being a NASCAR race and this was in San Diego where it was only 65 but had like 6 lanes.

The power to weight ratio for the twins must be in the neighbouhood of my CooperS ,and I enjoy merging with it. Now, merging with my wife's xB automatic, not so fun.

The0retical wrote: The obvious solution is that the Twins need more rocket bunny.

I prefer the FiveAD kit. Meant to make it look like the FR-S concept:

Those wheels look nice too, but that size is not sensible.

I think the car has a nice market overall. It sells way better than most niche cars and it is definitely a niche car, basically made for a person who either doesn't have kids or doesn't need to transport kids. My friends that are either single or DINKs have snapped them up. For a one car owning younger guy/gal that wants something interesting and doesn't want to do their own repairs it's a decent choice. We have probably half a dozen or more of them that show up at our local autox here in New England and that's New England, where one would suspect a RWD car would be less than appealing due to our winters.

I have a kid and if I owned one it would have to be a third car since I would need a kid transporter and as a third car it is not as interesting as say a used Porsche Cayman or a used Corvette. I have driven them and I really think they have a great cockpit and handle well, but I'd want something a little crazier if I wasn't going to use it as a daily.

I want an FRS and was in target for a 2016 purchase year. But then significant life events happen and the money is no longer saved up for this purpose.

So if I could I would have bought one. The NA miata was my best car fun with its dynamics and low power. The low power puts you into the mindset of maintaining momentum instead of just relying on power. Never worried about beating someone off the stop light.

I was going to test drive a BRZ but the dealer wouldn't allow me to try the manual transmission as they were all ordered and sold. Maybe if the budget opens up I will get one.

A coworker bought a FRS last year and I drove it around the parking lot. It's a nice enough car but I don't know... I don't dislike them, but I didn't fall in love with it either. Not like when I drove a NB Miata.

For me, the ultimate issue is there are so many interesting cars that will be introduced within the next few years (at various price points), I'm just not ready to say one of the twins is the one I want.

oldeskewltoy wrote: As to the uniqueness of this engine... in 2012 Cosworth barely managed to get 200hp from a Subaru 2.0 flat four N/A... that was a $20 grand engine.

Do you have any reference to this engine and where it was utilized or the series in which it competed?

I am familiar with their product catalog and racing endeavors and I do not recall nor see any mentions of this engine nor naturally aspirated parts for this engine. I believe they have focused most if not all time on the forced induction EJ20/EJ25 platform. And only the most top of the line CS600X comes in at a retail of $20k.

I could be wrong, and would be interested in learning more, just have not come across this before.

In reply to Mark_F:

I wish I had copied it at the time... It was back in 2010-2012, while all the hype was on about the Twins development. All kinds of engines were in the mix early(rumor mill), but when I heard they were planning on an N/A 200hp flat four, I did some digging... this was because I had never heard of an N/A flat four of any kind getting anywhere near 200hp to that time.

As to the SVX flat 6... ask Porsche, a flat 4 isn't a flat 6...

It's been said before, but remember that a front-facing car seat will fit in the back of an FRS. Assuming you're not talking about teenagers, "can't transport kids" simply isn't true.

Practicality is a continuum, just like "powerful" and "nimble". A small back seat is significantly more practical than no back seat at all.

vsquaredbyrho wrote: It's been said before, but remember that a front-facing car seat _will_ fit in the back of an FRS. Assuming you're not talking about teenagers, "can't transport kids" simply isn't true. Practicality is a continuum, just like "powerful" and "nimble". A small back seat is significantly more practical than no back seat at all.

If practicality is a continuum then the twins end up on the impractical side. It won't get kid transport done if you have more than one. I won't fit a front facing seat behind me in the car at 6'1" and I venture to say even someone of average height won't fit one either.

Let's just be realistic here, you're just not buying this if you have kids. If you have kids you get something else.

Boost_Crazy wrote: I actually bought a new vehicle after I said "If they build it, I'll buy it." That was my '05 Legacy GT Wagon. I went out and got one when I found that they were discontinuing the manual transmission after one year due to lack of sales. Now it's a sought after model, but they couldn't sell enough new. Ironically, it's the same reason why I most likely will never buy another new Subaru. I wonder if their reputation is catching up to them, and affecting sales. It's not that they have more problems than other makes. It's that they do nothing to fix problems once discovered. They just ride out the problem throughout the part's production cycle, hope they last past warranty, and fight the customer if it doesn't.

Its not just Subaru that plays that game,actually does any automaker NOT operate this way??

kevlarcorolla wrote:

Boost_Crazy wrote: I actually bought a new vehicle after I said "If they build it, I'll buy it." That was my '05 Legacy GT Wagon. I went out and got one when I found that they were discontinuing the manual transmission after one year due to lack of sales. Now it's a sought after model, but they couldn't sell enough new. Ironically, it's the same reason why I most likely will never buy another new Subaru. I wonder if their reputation is catching up to them, and affecting sales. It's not that they have more problems than other makes. It's that they do nothing to fix problems once discovered. They just ride out the problem throughout the part's production cycle, hope they last past warranty, and fight the customer if it doesn't.

Its not just Subaru that plays that game,actually does any automaker NOT operate this way??

My experience with Nissan is that they play that game...

Power isn't everything. Who needs a big power boost when there's aero, suspension, and weight reduction changes that can make perform in a nearly unfathomable manner for what it is? The TRD Griffon, with all of its furious 227 hp max, on the Tsukuba circuit runs a 58.4 second lap. Here's times of some other vehicles for comparison:

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/tsukuba.html

It's extremely fast in segment 3 - the aero and suspension simply WORKS brilliantly on that car...the stock aero being a really nice starting point probably helps. The TRD Griffon is the inspiration for changes to my FR-S.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1Tue_zyMQI

A twin doesn't need a major power increase...just weight reduction, aero, suspension, and gearing tweaks...

But for people who want it as a DD vice a track car, weight reduction generally mean less creature comforts or things that you actually WANT in a DD.....real aero isn't street-friendly (e.g. parking lot curbs, driveways, etc) and looks goofy on a street car, and really isn't all that useful at legal speeds anyhow.....suspension to a point, sure.....gearing tweaks probably not viable for DD. Not to mention all of these things can be done with a more powerful car too. They're not mutually exclusive.

But for DD'ing duty, more power is always nice and never hurts (IMO), especially when it doesn't add much weight (e.g. turbo).

Sure, if we're just talking about track cars the point is moot because it's gonna be heavily modded in all of those categories AND in power most likely. But for a DD, it's nice to have the car where you want it and still be under warranty, reliable, comfortable, etc.

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FWIW, regardless of the premise of this thread, there are at least a half dozen FRS/BRZ's in my work parking lot (out of maybe 500 total cars), which is about twice as many as there are WRXs or Miatas or other sportscars. And only one of them appears to be even lightly modded. In truth, most of the lot is full of Civics and Priuses, lol. I think a lot of people are buying the twins for their fuel economy as commuter cars, not for their track potential.

Just like most people (outside of GRM) buy Miatas for cruising around on nice days, not for motorsports.

I wonder if they are only regionally successful. I mean Chevy pretty much knows the volt only sells in California and Washington and has even said so.

Around here (San Diego) and when I lived in Seattle I saw BRZ/FRS all over the place so I have a hard time believing the struggling sales story.

90%+ of the twins I have seen are totally stock and look to me to be being driven by someone who was simply replacing a Scion TC and are not interested in it as a sports car