From Miata to Early S2000

Ok, I've got a 1997 Miata, FCM coilovers, Torsen, muffler, intake, good tires. I love the car to death, but after driving an AP2 S2000, I wouldn't mind the extra legroom, less noise, better highway manners. But all I can afford is an AP1.

Is the AP1 "oversteer" issue a big problem? Is it something that can be corrected, or is it just the idiot 17 year old kids who own these cars stuffing them into a wall? I want to track this car, but the idea of Porsche 930 like oversteer is a little daunting.

If you've had a Miata and gone to an S2000, let me know your thoughts. Also, what are the "good" upgrades to do, looking for handling, engine power isn't such a big deal.

What's the going rate for an S2000 these days?

It is not 930 bad, but it certainly is oversteer prone. As long as you keep that in mind, and know how to deal with it, you should be fine.

In reply to maroon92:

I have a '96 Miata and an '08 S2000 and all I can say is...I am glad I didn't have to sell the miata. The S2000 is a very capable car and easy to live. Faster, tighter and better seats, the S is a terrific vehicle (oversteer really isn't an issue unless you turn off the TSC, available on mine and ever since '02 it is less oversteery than the original).

However, the '96 remains a blast to toss around town. The lower limits make it tossable AND controllable and its just more fun on the road.

Don't get me wrong, I love the engineering that went in to the S and its better technically, but sometimes the miata just outshines much better vehicles.

As for modifying the S, I'd leave it alone. I love what Honda did and don't think more power would do anything for it except overwhelm the suspension at some point. But that's just me.

I've heard that it's primarily the people driving them not knowing how to handle RWD. Honda did make tweaks to the suspension for the later cars.

I have heard that most of the handling "issues" can be taken care of by getting it aligned so the rear end is more stable, and going to wider wheels/tires.

Track it.

All the Miata owners that I've known who went to S2000s have all come back to Miatas. Must be a reason for that NCs are coming down in price if you really need more room. Don't be put off by the 4x4 ride. Add Mazdaspeed springs and sways and it drives a lot like an NA. I should know, I've had 10 NAs.

EVO magazine commented on the oversteer nature of the AP1, so it's not just poor drivers. They also slated the 2006-08 Miata's suspension and steering, and I'm not going to disagree with them on that count . A decent set of shocks is what every NC needs, springs and sways are a good second step.

Never had the chance to drive an S2000 in anger myself, although what experience I do have with them makes me think it would be a better track car than road car. I feel the same way about the last RX7. You just can't properly take advantage of the car's strengths on the road.

I should be clear, I'm an automotive journalist, so I drive a fair amount of cars per year. I'm always happy to get back into the Miata, and the S2000 and the Elise have been the only cars that I've ever wanted more of after giving them back.

BUT I still know that I'd have a big lump in my throat if I had to hand over the keys to my 1997.

I've only driven AP1's but I really, really liked driving them in anger. S2000's also seem to have a lot more street cred with the general public than Miata's do. However, an older Miata with a decent suspension and forced induction seems to be about the best bang for the buck around. I keep mine in the garage, and the M3 sleeps outside ;)

As I'm sorta kinda searching for a miata, and hopefully will be getting one come fall-ish time, this throws a kink in the plans as they aren't that far out of my price range. What would the insurance difference be (for a 20 year old kid)?

mtn wrote: As I'm sorta kinda searching for a miata, and hopefully will be getting one come fall-ish time, this throws a kink in the plans as they aren't that far out of my price range. What would the insurance difference be (for a 20 year old kid)?

I think about 50% more for the S2000. At least that's what it was compared to my M Coupe. Insurance on an S2000, RX8, 350Z, or Evo is going to be crazy higher than anything else.

Salanis wrote:

mtn wrote: As I'm sorta kinda searching for a miata, and hopefully will be getting one come fall-ish time, this throws a kink in the plans as they aren't that far out of my price range. What would the insurance difference be (for a 20 year old kid)?

I think about 50% more for the S2000. At least that's what it was compared to my M Coupe. Insurance on an S2000, RX8, 350Z, or Evo is going to be crazy higher than anything else.

Well that puts an end to that idea.

mtn wrote:

Salanis wrote:

mtn wrote: As I'm sorta kinda searching for a miata, and hopefully will be getting one come fall-ish time, this throws a kink in the plans as they aren't that far out of my price range. What would the insurance difference be (for a 20 year old kid)?

I think about 50% more for the S2000. At least that's what it was compared to my M Coupe. Insurance on an S2000, RX8, 350Z, or Evo is going to be crazy higher than anything else.

Well that puts an end to that idea.

Last time I checked insurance for myself, s2000s just about split the difference between an M3 and my 328. They were significantly less than an RX8, 350Z, or Evo. Of course it'll easily be 2-3x as much as any Miata, because those are for old men and hairdressers .

In reply to Salanis:

Negative. State farm puts my S2000 at just a hair under $91 a month; full coverage, $100 deductible. I'm only 25, and it was even cheaper when I was still 24

I went and played around with Progressive's quote machine for giggles just now. My base 6-mo rate for full coverage on my '98 328i and '93 Miata was 378. If I keep the BMW as my primary, and replace the Miata with an '02 S2k it goes to 640. Replace it with an '05 Elise and it goes to 772. An '04 RX8 was 657. '05 350Z was 688. An '02 Corvette was $662. Oddly, an '05 "Evo" was $607, but I suspect that is only because Progressive gives me no way to differentiate between Lancer models when building a quote. Perhaps most surprisingly, an '02 Boxster was only $542.

An '07 Mazdaspeed3 was in Elise territory at $740. '05 Mini Cooper S was a reasonable $530. A 1975 Ferrari 308gt4 was in range with the Elise at $752. Maybe my favorite factoid about this exercise - adding the Miata only adds $30 to my base rate for the 328i alone. Another $53 gets full coverage on the Miata. Yeah, you're not going to find much in this world that's cheaper to insure.

In the interest of comparison with Salanis, an '00 M coupe comes up at $605.

An '04 P71, which I keep hearing is the cheapest car to insure EVAR, is $564. More than a frickin Boxster. No thanks.

I'm 21 and an AP1 is about $40 more a month than my car, so $400 more a year.

On another note, I'm thinking a Mazdaspeed car might split the difference. Is there any more room in these cars/ are the seats any more comfortable? My biggest gripe with the Miatas is really the discomfort I have on long drives.

A few comments here as I've been thinking the same thing, except I currently have a '99 Miata.

First, the S2000 is far better in snap oversteer than my old '91 MR2 Turbo. A little experience and common sense and you won't ever get into trouble.

The S doesn't give you the intimacy the Miata does I don't believe, but the seats are SOOOOO much better. That is always my main complaint against the Miata, and I've had a bunch of them. I sell them because of the seats, and come back to them because I miss the experience.

Maybe it's time to try a NC, but I keep looking at S2000's and thinking maybe it's time to try one.

Doesn't the 99 miata have the worst seats offered?

Only gripe I've heard about the s2000, is the aftermarket support for roll protection. Apparently the options aren't as elegant for the s2000. As a result, prepping one for track days may be a bit of pain in the arse. Most groups want to see roll protection above the head. The stock bars don't really accomplish that for most folks. Perhaps that has changed in the last few years?

dkreindler wrote: I'm 21 and an AP1 is about $40 more a month than my car, so $400 more a year. On another note, I'm thinking a Mazdaspeed car might split the difference. Is there any more room in these cars/ are the seats any more comfortable? My biggest gripe with the Miatas is really the discomfort I have on long drives.

I don't think there's a whole lot more room, but i found the seats VERY comfy, and it's a nice place to spend some miles.

I don't know that the MSM is going to be any cheaper than an AP1, though.

The MSM seats are the same seats that were used in all 2001-05 Miatas, but with different covering. The body shell is the same, so interior room isn't really different. Leather seats seem to offer less room than cloth.

Personally, I find stock Miata seats very comfortable. But I've also modified a few by strategic foam shaving - the seats in Elvis fit me like a set of good semi-race seats, but look stock.

I've written extensively about the S2000 and what it's like on-track and it's oversteer issues. Search the archives.

David

DWNSHFT wrote: 2.0 liter S2000s have a rear toe control issue. Check the archives, I've written about it before. I agree, the electric power steering is the worst aspect of a fantastic track car. Very numb non-confidence-inspiring; would that be confidence-destroying? On the Spec Miatas we could take the power steering rack, "re-build" it and leave out all the power steering seals, and get a quick ratio rack with very acceptable levels of effort. I bet there's a fix out there for the S2000. David [from the archives at http://archive.grassrootsmotorsports.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=27160] My experience with S2000s is all on track, not autocross. I'm not an S2000 expert but I have first-hand, left seat experience at the limit. I like S2000s and think they are fantastic track cars. I'm not bashing. The early cars had an issue with rear toe control. Under deflection (hard cornering) the outside rear wheel would develop dynamic toe out. What this means is that as you are, for example, turning left, the right rear wheel, as it becomes fully loaded, starts to turn RIGHT and you get a possible oversteer situation. Note I said a POSSIBLE oversteer situation. The car doesn't just spin itself and it's not an uncontrollable thing. However, and to me this is key, what you have is a car that does not behave in a linear fashion. What do I mean? As you add steering, and cornering forces build, the car rotates at a certain rate. However, as you reach that certain point on the suspension travel, increased steering causes rotation to increase AT AN INCREASING RATE. With the S2000 rear toe control problem you get a very spooky feeling as you approach the limits such that the car starts to over-rotate and you think the rear end is losing traction but it is in fact the change in toe increasing the rotation. Both the owner and I found it very spooky (each drove and reported the same thing, and we're both experienced drivers). This is the same issue found on first generation RX-7s, which also have a reputation for snap oversteer (and I have extensively driven those on-track, as well). To drive a car at the limit it needs to be predictable, and linear is predictable and non-linear is less predictable. Since this experience was at high speed on track, would this be an issue autocrossing? I say yes, for any serious driving. When autocrossing you need to be able to very quickly, accurately and consistently push the car right to the limit of rotation and an unpredictable (non-linear) response will hinder that. OK, that's the issue. The good news is that there is a simple fix out there. It's a rear toe control kit and, if I recall correctly from my friend, it sells for less than $250 and is an easy install. The same car in the same turn was transformed from a white-knuckle "I don't dare go 10/10ths" to "Yeah baby yeah baby push it!" I respect Honda's engineers a lot and I theorize the S2000 was their baby, so I'll confess I'm a little shocked Honda let this slip by. [edit] I've since driven other early s2000s on other tracks and confirmed the toe control issue. The model year 2000 I just drove was even worse than I remember, but then the rear suspension bushings are now eight years old and probably allowing even more toe change. I understand the toe-control issue was present from the car's inception. I think it was solved by the factory when they revised the rear suspension, which I think was in 2002. I'm not a S2000 timeline expert so please research further. I can't tell you the manufacturer of my friend's kit, but I'm guessing you'll find several solutions online. Now if only there were a simple, cheap, easy-to-install solution for the poor steering feel... Good luck!

Hey David? This is GRM, we don't send people out to search, save that crap for other boards.

In reply to turboswede: I'll save everyone from the archives

DWNSHFT wrote: Honda S2000 Suspension question My experience with S2000s is all on track, not autocross. I'm not an S2000 expert but I have first-hand, left seat experience at the limit. I like S2000s and think they are fantastic track cars. I'm not bashing. The early cars had an issue with rear toe control. Under deflection (hard cornering) the outside rear wheel would develop dynamic toe out. What this means is that as you are, for example, turning left, the right rear wheel, as it becomes fully loaded, starts to turn RIGHT and you get a possible oversteer situation. Note I said a POSSIBLE oversteer situation. The car doesn't just spin itself and it's not an uncontrollable thing. However, and to me this is key, what you have is a car that does not behave in a linear fashion. What do I mean? As you add steering, and cornering forces build, the car rotates at a certain rate. However, as you reach that certain point on the suspension travel, increased steering causes rotation to increase AT AN INCREASING RATE. With the S2000 rear toe control problem you get a very spooky feeling as you approach the limits such that the car starts to over-rotate and you think the rear end is losing traction but it is in fact the change in toe increasing the rotation. Both the owner and I found it very spooky on the banking at Phoenix Interntational Raceway at about 95 MPH (each drove and reported the same thing, and we're both experienced drivers). This is the same issue found on first generation RX-7s, which also have a reputation for snap oversteer (and I have extensively driven those on-track, as well). To drive a car at the limit it needs to be predictable, and linear is predictable and non-linear is less predictable. Since this experience was at high speed on track, would this be an issue autocrossing? I say yes, for any serious driving. When autocrossing you need to be able to very quickly, accurately and consistently push the car right to the limit of rotation and an unpredictable (non-linear) response will hinder that. OK, that's the issue. The good news is that there is a simple fix out there. It's a rear toe control kit and, if I recall correctly from my friend, it sells for less than $250 and is an easy install. The same car in the same turn was transformed from a white-knuckle "I don't dare go 10/10ths" to "Yeah baby yeah baby push it!" I respect Honda's engineers a lot and I theorize the S2000 was their baby, so I'll confess I'm a little shocked Honda let this slip by. Perhaps with stock tires (and without banking?) the suspension deflection doesn't reach the critical toe-out point. I understand the toe-control issue was present from the car's inception. I think it was solved by the factory when they revised the rear suspension, which I think was in 2002. I'm not a S2000 timeline expert so please research further. I can't tell you the manufacturer of my friend's kit, but I'm guessing you'll find several solutions online. Now if only there were a simple, cheap, easy-to-install solution for the poor steering feel...

DWNSHFT wrote: S2000 versus Miata? Wow, that's kindofa apples and oranges thing. Well, actually, maybe it's sortofa M-16 versus .22LR comparison... They're both the same caliber, but one's on steroids, and not necessarily more fun... I don't autocross much but I will tailor my comments to street and autocross. Also, my experience is all in M1 and M2 miatae, i.e. first body style. The Honda has a nicer interior but it feels more cramped. S2000 has a more laid-down, stretched-out driving position. I think the S2000 has truly miserable steering feel. The S2000 steering wheel is too low, too vertical, and not adjustable. And when heel-and-toeing the S2000 I tend to bonk my right knee on the under-dash (I'm 5'10" and 140# so not a big guy). My race seat in the Spec Miata is bolted to the floor, so while I have no fitment issues, it's not representative of a street Miata. Both cars require revs to go fast, but you need to love sport bikes at least a bit to rev the Honda to 9000. It doesn't complain, mind you, it's just a lot of revs. Many people find the S2000 low on torque, or low unless you thrash it. And that's true. I think it's neat, though, that you can putter around town like any other Accord but when you want to you can unleash the light sabre and slice through traffic like butter. The S2000 is still a momentum car, and momentum cars require commitment to drive fast. Commitment = high entry speeds. The S2000 really is a super car in the vein of a 911 or Z06; but it is a 2.0 liter super car. [Well, or 2.2 liter.] They seem to be Honda-reliable. Oh, and the S2000 sounds killer when you rip it. The Miata is, well, just right. Er, it's simply RIGHT. It's right in the way that all other cars should be. Looks good, feels great, more fun to drive than, well, anything short of a supercharged Atom. And I've driven a lot of cars. Less power, less tire, slower straight-line speeds, lower cornering speeds, MORE FUN. It has to do with the ergonomics and dynamics of the controls, the powerband of the motor, and the lively, tossable handling. No, it doesn't have much horsepower or torque. But the motor feels so good, and the shifts are so good you don't mind shifting a lot. They have skinny tires and body roll, but that's what makes them fun. You can do a cloverleaf at 50 and have a blast and not feel out of control. Whereas "fast" cars tend to go straight from boring to scary. Miata are beautifully designed and engineered. The motors are anvil tough and the brakes are track-ready (Spec Miatas are basically stock engines and truly stock calipers and rotors). Miata are not perfect - they are very light, which is good, but carries the penalty of being noisier and feeling less substantial. The S2000 feels more substantial. However, in my experience (five significant on-track impacts) Miatae are very stout. Probably not stout enough to go head-to-head with an Excursion, but then an S2000 probably isn't, either. The Miata is one of best cars available and by driving one you set yourself apart from the crowd as being one of the cool people in the know. [That was only halfway tongue-in-cheek.] The S2000 is a fabulous track weapon. Both cars are pretty tiny for daily drivers. Both cars force me to peer under the windshield header (assuming stock seats) although the Miata is probably worse in this regard. The Honda is more "grown-up" in terms of interior materials quality, interior design, feeling substantial not tinny, and clearly a more sophisticated engineering solution, all of which comes with a substantial price premium. I'm assuming you have some other car you can use for road trips... For me, for a not-a-track-car I would hands-down buy the Miata. Way cheaper, still way reliable, great factory and aftermarket support, but mostly just MORE FUN. Probably better mileage, too, but I don't know. Obviously the S2000 is much faster, but I don't need that much power on the street. I'D RATHER DRIVE A SLOW CAR FAST THAN A FAST CAR SLOW. Your opinion may vary. ;-) If I really wanted to go faster than a M2 Miata, the S2000 is a great step up in speed and price. But I'd look long and hard and harder and harder at doing a supercharged Miata. For the price differential you can probably get a great fully-engineered, turn-key supercharger solution installed. [Keith?] I honestly think the original Miata was built by passion and love more than rational or economic feasibility. The right people got together with the perfect concept at just the right time in the market and did it at a company that was too out-of-control for the bean-counters to ruin it. Remember, in the mid-90s Mazda almost went bankrupt from engineering cars too well that they couldn't price competitively in a market that wanted blah-blah Tauruses and Accords. What I'm saying is, the Miata was too narrowly focused and too well engineered to ever see production except in a unique circumstance. I really think we may never, never see its' equal at any comparable price point.

Especially THESE archives. Not to complain too much, but searching them SUCKS. A good example is a did a search for "AWD" which is in the title of a thread I started one week before I did the search (searching to see if anyone responded). No such luck. I ended up just flipping through until I got to the week old threads.