FWD + Snow = Unimpressed

You made points?

Are you sure that you were not actually arguing against any misconstrued points?

Since others have mentioned experience, I have been driving since 1959. Obviously I started out with RWD but have had FWD, AWD and 4-wheel drive vehicles. And there is a difference between AWD and 4-wheel. I classify them this way for winter/snow driving.

General Snow Driving: FWD>AWD>4-wheel>RWD
Icy stuff: 4-wheel>AWD>FWD and forget RWD
"Hooning" around: RWD>4-wheel>AWD>FWD

The best all around vehicle I ever had was a SAAB 96 with the V4 engine. Just enough weight over the drive wheels to provide traction and the flat belly pan made it a good "sled" for blasting through drifts.

I wonder if it's possible that each car is different, each tire on each car is different, each driver driving that different car with different tires is different and each different type of snow that each different car with different tires driven by a different driver in different snow conditions makes this whole argument a huge moot point and there isn't an answer so much as this is a discussion of what we all prefer?

Hmmmmmmm...

(Why does the word "different" look different now that I wrote it several different times?)

Driven5 wrote: In reply to Advan046: That's by far the best, and least biased, overall analysis of this whole debate.

Thanks!! DARN! I'm sorry about that....I will go work on biased post skills.

In reply to Advan046:

I got ya' covered man

ebonyandivory wrote: I wonder if it's possible that each car is different, each tire on each car is different, each driver driving that different car with different tires is different and each different type of snow that each different car with different tires driven by a different driver in different snow conditions makes this whole argument a huge moot point and there isn't an answer so much as this is a discussion of what we all prefer? Hmmmmmmm... (Why does the word "different" look different now that I wrote it several different times?)

How dare you bring logic into our annual, my xWD is better than your xWD argument.

And as was posted earlier,

TIRES

I've had crap tires on RWD. I've crap tires on 4WD. And now I've driven FWD on crap tires. All things being equal, FWD is still at the bottom of my list. Sorry.

Appleseed wrote: I've had crap tires on RWD. I've crap tires on 4WD. And now I've driven FWD on crap tires. All things being equal, FWD is still at the bottom of my list. Sorry.

Mine too. I always just figured I was weird. im also one of the few people I know here in ohio who prefers a 2wd even in the winter!

I remember getting to try and move a 2008 TL-S with the 6-spd and Bridgestone re-050 summer tires in 6" of snow. The only worse experience in snow was my 2000 Sonoma 1wd with the sport side bed (lightest) on 17x9 Boydz wheels wrapped in Nitto NT450 summer tires in 6" of snow. Both were equally horrific.

My Protege5 literally wouldn't move more than 3 inches with summer tires.

Two days before a predicted 8" snow storm I scrambled to find cheap snows. I finally did and didn't have to even shovel out.

If fact, I had to run to the pharmacy for one of my patients during another storm and I was literally smiling the whole trip.

dropstep wrote:

Appleseed wrote: I've had crap tires on RWD. I've crap tires on 4WD. And now I've driven FWD on crap tires. All things being equal, FWD is still at the bottom of my list. Sorry.

Mine too. I always just figured I was weird. im also one of the few people I know here in ohio who prefers a 2wd even in the winter!

Count me in that.

Hey, even Consumers Reports says winter tires are better in/on snow and ice.

All I can say: Bring your RWD vehicle to our Track Day on Ice and see how well you do against all the FWD cars. Only winter tires allowed.

In reply to iceracer:

I don't think anyone here is talking about being the fastest.

Edit; Better does not always equal faster.

Edit2; I would have a hell of a lot more fun in a RWD at your lake, mainly because I know I won't be able to complete a lap in a FWD car.

The best cars I have had on snow/ice have been an 86 Nissan Pulsar(fwd), 83 Alfa GTV(rwd) and several 80's Chrysler product fwd. The worst have been an 85 Chevy Celebrity wagon(fwd) and an 83 Ford Escort(fwd). The Celebrity and Escort were nearly undrivable in the snow. The pulsar plowed through snow coming up over the hood and the Alfa and Chrysler were just about as good. I bought studded snows for the Alfa and only used them the first season, never really needing them after that, no matter how deep the snow.

Best thing I've ever driven in snow is a 1978 E150 on all seasons. 300 I6 and a 5 speed. As a matter of fact, that was the first time I had ever driven on snow. I was 17 and 300 miles from home on my first solo road trip. I bet my mom was having heart failure the entire time.

It was no different than driving on really slick mud and I'd been playing in the mud since I learned to drive at ll yo. It was kind of a non event I slowed down to about 45 and kept going. It was fresh, nicely packable snow, so that probably helped. It would make a hell of a snow ball.

I've driven in it twice since. Both times I put the car off the road hooning. I'm really hoping for snow this year. The Samurai should be a blast.

The big difference is that as engines and transaxles have gotten lighter there is less weight on the drive tires. Also tires are getting wider making traction worse. In a RWD you can add a bit of weight. I run 250 lbs in my Mustang. I had a Saturn SL2 and the only way I could keep it from riding up on the snow while driving was to stuff sand bags the the passenger foot space.

iceracer wrote: Hey, even Consumers Reports says winter tires are better in/on snow and ice. All I can say: Bring your RWD vehicle to our Track Day on Ice and see how well you do against all the FWD cars. Only winter tires allowed.

im driving a 2.2 auto s10 without winter tires, just 235/75 wranglers with about 4k miles on them. I hope your winter tired car can out run my bone stock 3400lb s10 :)

My '13 mustang on studded generals was a lot more fun but somewhat less stable and capable than my '14 Mazda6 on Blizzaks. Both cars got me through interior Alaskan winters just fine though, with a preference to the mustang for having a better heater. Neither is as good as my wife's crosstrek on factory all seasons except when it comes to braking.

Nick_Comstock wrote: In reply to iceracer: I don't think anyone here is talking about being the fastest. Edit; Better does not always equal faster. Edit2; I would have a hell of a lot more fun in a RWD at your lake, mainly because I know I won't be able to complete a lap in a FWD car.

Honestly if you think you can't drive a fwd well then I suggest you don't really know how to drive period.

Regardless of which end or how many wheels are driven if you can't figure out how to weight shift and time that transfer to your advantage then your not really driving anything anywhere close to its potencial anyways.

I suggest getting over your hangup and learn how to drive different cars,you might just be surprised you can enjoy driving damn near anything with the right techniques.

kevlarcorolla wrote: Honestly if you think you can't drive a fwd well then I suggest you don't really know how to drive period.

This. I don't consider myself to be a very good driver but FWD is easy-peasy in the snow. You just need to use that big round thing in front of you to vector your thrust and make sure you're not going so fast/applying so much throttle that you're blowing way to the outside of the grip curve.

It might be easier to induce oversteer and hence have more fun in rwd. However, spend some time in a snowy parking lot with a fwd and you can do the same.

In fact, that it's another thing you can master might just make it more fun due to the new challenge! Like learning a new trick!

ebonyandivory wrote: It might be easier to induce oversteer and hence have more fun in rwd.

It's a lot harder in RWD than FWD.

Knurled wrote:

ebonyandivory wrote: It might be easier to induce oversteer and hence have more fun in rwd.

It's a lot harder in RWD than FWD.

Really? Stomping on the gas pedal is all I need in my rwd truck, from a stop even. It's really just one simple act of depressing the gas pedal especially if it's in snow. How is getting my Protege5 up to (whatever) speed and doing certain well-timed pedal maneuvers (albeit not overly complicated) easier than just stomping on one pedal?

I ask seriously, I'm open to learning new things.

ebonyandivory wrote:

Knurled wrote:

ebonyandivory wrote: It might be easier to induce oversteer and hence have more fun in rwd.

It's a lot harder in RWD than FWD.

Really? Stomping on the gas pedal is all I need in my rwd truck, from a stop even. It's really just one simple act of depressing the gas pedal especially if it's in snow. How is getting my Protege5 up to (whatever) speed and doing certain well-timed pedal maneuvers (albeit not overly complicated) easier than just stomping on one pedal? I ask seriously, I'm open to learning new things.

That's not inducing oversteer, that's doing a burnout

I'm thinking of braking into a corner and knocking the tail out so that the car is aligned with the corner exit before you get there. With RWD on a slippery surface, it's difficult to get enough weight transfer without locking up the front brakes. With FWD and all of that drivetrain mass attached to the front tires, braking hard without losing steering is much easier.

And with FWD, even if the tail doesn't come around very much, you can still move that big roudn thing to vector the drive wheels so that you still go where you want on corner exit. With RWD, if you didn't get the back end around so you're vectoring properly, you're boned. You have to screw around with throttle modulation until you get to where you can start accelerating out. The guy in the FWD car doesn't have to do that, just steer and stomp.

In reply to Knurled:

I see. I was looking at a different scenario. I guess considering that the "M" in GRM stands for Motorsport, you were talking about actually trying to drive and not just spin donuts in an empty, snow-covered parking lot which is where I was thinking.

Makes more sense now.