Well as a guy who runs a HVAC/sheet metal fabrication shop, I can attest that in Northern California once you have good skills in most trades you're pretty well guaranteed of steady work and good pay. A few guys have VERY good pay. One thing to consider is that a lot of blue collar trades are sufficiently physically taxing that it's hard to work past 60 or so unless you've taken very good care of your body. If you've developed mad skills, that deadline can be extended significantly.
past 60? i didnt make it past 30 before i was having to pop 3 or 4 lortabs a day.
yup growing up at our HS the only way to do any sort of tec classes was to head to the vocational school... and that was pretty much limited access to the pot heads (or other trouble makers that the school would rather not have around)
college was the ONLY way to go...
Kreb- one of the problems I have is finding someone who is a real craftsman. I don't think this is uncommon. Too many amateurs out there claiming they know what they're doing- so many that I don't trust anyone, and end up doing most of the jobs myself.
My dad was a bricklayer, and pushed me to college. I don't regret it. I humped enough bricks around jobs from the age of 6-18 that I didn't want any part of it. The military has been a good life for me, and no where else would I have been able to become a pilot. I don't even care how much money I earn as long as it is enough that I don't have to worry too much about it (read: it doesn't cause arguments with the wife, and I'm not scraping for change to buy food).
I think you should pursue your interests, but go into it with your eyes open. Know that as a mechanic you are never going to live in the big house or have the really nice car, take expensive vacations, etc. You have to calibrate your expectations early. Know that as a manual laborer, your body will hate you when you are 50. I'm certainly not going to push my son toward the trades because of these facts.
Anyway, he said I could do anything I wanted, but I was by god going to have a college degree to "fall back on".
I've never actually been qualified on paper for any job I've held. I don't regret going to university at all, you learn a lot more than just subject matter. Same with my academic focus in high school. It might have helped that I went to a "professional school" in university instead of just going into the big liberal arts BA pool.
But on the side, I've always tinkered with stuff. Physical stuff and digital stuff. Programming computers isn't really that different from building cars - it's all about problem-solving. And it's the tinkerers that we need, as they're the ones that make stuff and learn real skills, whether that's fixing plumbing or pushing bits around. We need to encourage people to tinker. Not just consider trades - that will come as a result.
Well, as a Ironworker, Certified welder fitter and in the trade for 20 plus years. I am heading back to school to get a degree. I never went to collage, started welding in Sr high. I have found an corse in alternitive energy,and want to study and become certified installer of wind and solar.
ReverendDexter wrote:AngryCorvair wrote: Read this book!Convince me that it's not just a knock-off of this one. and I'll give it a read-through.
Definitely not a knockoff. One advocates knowing and appreciating mechanical knowledge or knowing how things work and respecting quality. The other is advocating personal agency - providing value for your work - to the point your skills are sought after and managing that value to your best interest.
IWELDIT wrote: Well, as a Ironworker, Certified welder fitter and in the trade for 20 plus years. I am heading back to school to get a degree. I never went to collage, started welding in Sr high. I have found an corse in alternitive energy,and want to study and become certified installer of wind and solar.
Not a bad plan. In my book, getting certified/degree'd in a professional discipline is an order of magnitude more worthwhile than studying liberal arts. In my opinion, getting degree in something like cultural studies or philosophy is more expensive and a lot less useful than backpacking around the world for four years.
I don't know what you could do about it, but part of the issue is that these jobs don't really pay as much as we joke they do. Like the plumber thing. I had some plumbing work done over the winter. I ended up using Roto Rooter. They sent out some guys who, well... they got the job done. But let's just say, going on to higher education was likely not on their mind. I don't think they were making great money. I called a regular plumber guy, but he couldn't get to me for a while and I kinda needed to be able to use the shower and toilet.
If you google the stats, people with college degrees make more money than people without them. That's why everyone wants their kids to get one.
Yeah, just found this real quick.
The question is though, when everyone has a college degree in whatever, and no one knows how to fix a toilet, who's truly more valuable? Everyone's gotta poop.....
good site for occupations, wages, demographics etc.:
http://www.bls.gov/bls/blswage.htm
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.
In our socieity, right or wrong, we show what we value with money. And we're saying we don't value those people as much as dudes who sit in offices. And my experience with the plumbing work would seem to indicate that there's a real need. I paid a E36 M3 ton to have it fixed, but I have a feeling my money went to a guy in an office with a business degree.
im 41yrs old.. i have medical experience. phlebotomy. emt I.. i can start iv's. BUT.. cant find anything more than per diem. so, i now work at a golf course as a seasonal employee. i will be laid off in nov. im gonna buy a plow truck. i can collect unemployment for about13 weeks or so.. if it snows im ahead of the game. if it doesnt i can make it work. BUT once again even with my experience.. doin groundskeeping work and plowin snow. i couldnt be happier.
fast_eddie_72 wrote:
Yeah, but this includes things like secretaries and fast food employees that bring the averages down for the less educated. What you need is a comparison of bachelors, masters, etc and vocational skilled professions.
sanman wrote: Yeah, but this includes things like secretaries and fast food employees that bring the averages down for the less educated. What you need is a comparison of bachelors, masters, etc and vocational skilled professions.
That's a good point. A bunch of minimum wage jobs will knock an average down real quick.
ReverendDexter wrote:AngryCorvair wrote: Read this book!Convince me that it's not just a knock-off of this one. and I'll give it a read-through.
Funny enough... I just finished reading a book called "Zen and Now" .... which retraces Persig's journey, while the author pursues his own internal quest. It was written by the editor of the Toronto Star's Wheels section, who was my partner for the drive across Alaska a couple of months ago. Very well written, thoughtful and insightful. Although it leaves you not liking Persig very much, you come away with a few tiny little "aha" moments that can be applied to your own quest. At least I did.
Bravo Mr. Rowe, from someone trained for HVAC.
nderwater wrote:SyntheticBlinkerFluid wrote: Nobody in this country wants to do skilled or manual labor as work anymore because they are not taught how to do it.I'd go further and say that they are taught not to do it, but to get a 'real' job so that they can pay someone else to.
Lack of funding at high schools, too. Shop, Art and Music are amongst the first to be axed. Schools, caught short of funding, have to meet the obligations of no child left behind, or lose federal funding. So those classes that don't aid to that end are cut.
So you have an entire generation that was never exposed to the workings of a car, welding, soldering, plumbing, etc to see if they even like it.
triumph5 wrote: Lack of funding at high schools, too. Shop, Art and Music are amongst the first to be axed. Schools, caught short of funding, have to meet the obligations of no child left behind, or lose federal funding. So those classes that don't aid to that end are cut. So you have an entire generation that was never exposed to the workings of a car, welding, soldering, plumbing, etc to see if they even like it.
Not entirely, most counties have tech/vocational schools, and in every school in my county art classes were mandatory(same as language) and the band classes were very well funded.The only reason Shop classes are either being done away with or watered down is because of idiot children and nanny staters/moron parents. Most of this is just the education system seriously putting down manual labor classes at tech schools. It seems anymore going to college for four years and getting a degree that will be of zero help or relevance is presented as a positive thing, while actually learning how to wire a house, or build them, means you weren't smart enough to go to college. Hell, most jobs nowadays require a degree of some form or another, whether or not it's a useful one. We've been told over and over that to succeed in life you have to go to college, and so colleges have been making up classes for the tards who don't understand math, are barely literate, and struggle to form two coherent sentences on any subject other than "what I watched on TV". Then these people get shoved out into the world and discover that their degrees in womens studies are useless and they end up working at starbucks or something.
At the Votech school I went to, when I went to it, the classes that were filled up to the brim were the cosmotology classes, the computer classes, and auto classes.
In reply to KATYB: Well there's a wide range of trades out there. Certainly I wouldn't like to be laying bricks, painting (AKA the fast track to alcoholism) or roofing much past 25'. That said, my foreman, who just retired comfortably at 63 always looked like the slowest worker I had. In fact, it was the opposite. He never made things twice, and always did whatever it was in the most efficient manner possible. He was tremendously productive. In other words, he replaced brawn with brains. I know a 95 year old finish carpenter who still works a 40 hour week. You just need to retool your approach.
A fantastic book on aptitude and intelligence is Howard Gardener's "Frames of Mind, The theory of multiple intelligences". Very good reading for anyone trying to figure themselves out vocationally.
If you do what you love, you're a success.
True,but not entirely. Iin the approx 5 years you graduated HS, the humber of counties that have had to drop these programs has been dramatic .
triumph5 wrote: True,but not entirely. Iin the approx 5 years you graduated HS, the humber of counties that have had to drop these programs has been dramatic .
It's been 6 years since I dropped out, so you're probably right. I'm honestly fine with art and music getting cut, I would like to see more schooling funds go towards actually teaching people how to do things.
That D student isn't going to be an engineer, maybe we should do something to make sure he isn't stuck at McDonalds for the rest of his life.
Grizz wrote: I'm honestly fine with art and music getting cut, I would like to see more schooling funds go towards actually teaching people how to do things.
I have some pretty well paid designers who would be pretty quick to say they "do things". And they do. I keep them plenty busy with projects that all have revenue attached to them. It's tough to land a good job as a designer. There are a LOT of people out there who want to do it. Only the good ones get good gigs. But they're very good gigs.
fast_eddie_72 wrote:Grizz wrote: I'm honestly fine with art and music getting cut, I would like to see more schooling funds go towards actually teaching people how to do things.I have some pretty well paid designers who would be pretty quick to say they are "doing something". And they are too. I keep them plenty busy with projects that all have revenue attached to them. It's tough to land a good job as a designer. There are a LOT of people out there who want to do it. Only the good ones get good gigs. But they're very good gigs.
Probably worded it poorly, the second bit should have clarified, when I'm talking about teaching people to do things, I mean the people who are getting out of high school now, who aren't going to go to college, and probably aren't going to get a decent job ever.
I hated school with a burning hatred of epic proportions. I didn't go to college. Hell I didn't even finish high school. I took the GED and left home. If there had been a good vocational school around I probably would have loved it.
I have done everything from dig ditches to clean things. From manage stores to run a company. Started at $6.00 an hour 25 years ago, working in a warehouse. Last year I made more than the BS average in the chart above, by a good bit. College is overrated. I don't miss going. I guess my posts would have better grammar if I had and thank God for spell check.
My wife did miss going. She went back and got a degree in English and Journalism. She will probably never use her degree, but her hobby wasn't any more expensive than mine are. I take that back, she makes several hundred a month writing responses for Answers.com. She has also written several thing for the local paper. Her posts are much easier to read than mine are. 
My kids are given the option. They know how hard I have worked in the past and still do at times. So far one of them has gone to college and one hasn't. I'm good with it either way. My eldest son decided to get a job and get married. (Not necessarily in that order.) He works for me, and is an outstanding employee. He'll end up running the place one day. My daughter decided to go to college. She's doing a double major in Graphic Design and Business. I'm proud of both of them. They will both be an asset to society. They have a good work ethic. As long as I can teach them that, I know they will get ahead in this world. It's worth more than any college education they would ever pay for.
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