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thedanimal
thedanimal HalfDork
9/7/22 9:48 p.m.

First off. I know glitter in the oil is generally a bad thing. Just looking for some thoughts on what may be the culprit here. The patient is an 06 scion XA with 175k miles, I changed the oil today and it's pretty glittery with gold/copper colored chunks. No weird noises or major issues with the car, do we think rod bearings/ main bearings or something less sinister? 

02Pilot
02Pilot UberDork
9/7/22 10:10 p.m.

Metal of that color certainly makes me think of bearings. You don't happen to have an oil pressure gauge, do you?

thedanimal
thedanimal HalfDork
9/7/22 10:26 p.m.

In reply to 02Pilot : 
I don't, however a buddy of mine does. What should I be looking for? A drop in oil pressure?

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
9/7/22 10:27 p.m.

My goal was not to instill fear but rather instill hope.  Those 1.5L engines are a variation of the Gen2 Prius gas engine.  But, not they do not direct swap with each other dues to a different cycle in that the Prius is Atkins Cycle and the Non-hybrid version is Otto Cycle.  But, Prius 1.5L engines are super cheap, like $300 for 120k miles!!!  

I then wondered if your 1.5L engines are cheap.  Car-part.com for your part of Texas is unclear with most listing either not giving miles and not giving costs.  Here in Ohio the best I see is like 160k miles for $450.  But there is a place in Cincinnati that has 8 JDM engines all listed as less than 55k miles for $900 each.  Since these weigh less than 200lb, shipping could be reasonable.  

02Pilot
02Pilot UberDork
9/8/22 8:10 a.m.

In reply to thedanimal :

At this point you'd just be looking for pressure significantly below spec. If you had had one installed in the car, you'd be looking for a pattern of lower pressures in similar operating conditions.

Toyman!
Toyman! GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/8/22 8:59 a.m.

Is it knocking? If so, rod bearings would be my guess. 

Does it have a low-end rumble? Then crank bearings. 

Other than that, maybe cam bearings if it uses them. 

Could also be the thrust bearing. 

That's also a timing chain engine. Does it rattle on startup? It could have a chain guide that it coming apart. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
9/8/22 9:46 a.m.

Get an oil sample. Get it checked.

 

what should you do? save up some cash. 

PMRacing
PMRacing GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
9/8/22 11:40 a.m.

Switch from Unicorn oil to regular dino oil. cheeky

 

I'll show myself out.  A 5 yr old daughter keeps unicorns in the brain. 

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
9/8/22 12:53 p.m.

I don't understand why it matters where the glitter is coming from, because the bottom line is the same: the engine is failing.

If he's asking can he keep driving it, yes, for "some" amount of time.

If he's asking if the engine needs replacing, yes, eventually, maybe months, maybe years.

It's on its way out but not immediately, so I agree with others that it's time to start saving for the solution before it becomes a must-do.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
9/8/22 1:04 p.m.
Fueled by Caffeine said:

Get an oil sample. Get it checked.

 

what should you do? save up some cash. 

If you just have to know, this is your answer. But I can tell you that at this point it's no worth the money. That much metal in your engine oil is a failure that just hasnt quite happened yet. UOA will tell you what area, so if it is bearings you could maybe slap a set of bearings in and hope for the best. But that engine is not long for this world. 

If you want to go that route, let me know. I can help with that

wspohn
wspohn SuperDork
9/8/22 1:20 p.m.

Common issue for BMW S54 owners - most of us sign up with a lab and send in periodic samples of oil which are analyzed and warn you if the metals found in the bearings suddenly increase in the oil.  Part of the joy of owning engines with a relatively long stroke (91 mm) that turn 8,000 rpm.

When racing I often used to use a Crossland felt oil filter so I could pull it out and stretch the element out to examine it (always felt like a primitive priest reading the entrails of a sacrificed sheep) for 'glitter' 

If you can plumb an oil pressure gauge into your engine you can assess how much damage has been done, but frankly I'd drop the pan and start pulling rod caps to inspect the bearings as a more accurate method of assessment.

thedanimal
thedanimal HalfDork
9/8/22 3:57 p.m.

Thanks everyone for the input. No knocking, no weird noises, just business as usual. But I figured it's not a question of "if" but when for catastrophic engine failure. If anyone has any $7k and under reliable family cars in Austin let me know! 

paddygarcia
paddygarcia GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/8/22 4:00 p.m.

OT but there are convenient tools to open up filters for entrail-reading. I do it occasionally in addition to analysis.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
9/8/22 4:13 p.m.

In reply to paddygarcia :

If you're seeing particles in a common oil filter, you probably already have issues. Human eyes can see down to ~70-80 microns. Most OE type filters filter down to ~30 microns (not going to get into beta ratios and all that, just round numbers). Considering most common bearing tolerances are 50-70 microns, if you're seeing it, its an issue. 

914Driver
914Driver MegaDork
9/8/22 4:18 p.m.

Gold strikes me as brass or bronze, like the syncro dealies in a transmission.

 Where inside this engine is there brass?  Bottom of the distributor?  Just curious.

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/8/22 4:27 p.m.

It doesn't look good.  Those are some pretty big chunks.  Was that pan really clean when you started? Is there any doubt that could be sand, dirt, etc from under the car or oil filter?  

I'd get an oil analysis as was mentioned and run a short interval into a super clean pan and see if you have more flakes, check the filter for the same.  

Basically you only have one data point as of right now.  Before you panic, rule out external contamination and verify that the engine is still shedding debris.

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/8/22 6:06 p.m.

That is nothing at all to worry about.  Almost all oil looks like that after a few thousand miles.  What you are seeing is particulates too fine for the filter to catch, and it does not take much to be visible in light.

 

Now, if you could see discrete little flakes, I'd be worried.  I see no flakes, just air bubbles.

 

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/8/22 6:07 p.m.

That is nothing at all to worry about.  Almost all oil looks like that after a few thousand miles.  What you are seeing is particulates too fine for the filter to catch, and it does not take much to be visible in light.

 

Now, if you could see discrete little flakes, I'd be worried.  I see no flakes, just air bubbles.

If you want to be ultra anal retentive, cut the filter open (curse thread on filters vs. the superiority of canister filters) and lay it out over white paper, like a mat of paper towel.  The oil will spread out and deposit chunks as it leaves the filter.  You can observe that, and look at the filter media once the oil has mostly drooled off of it.

 

MiniDave
MiniDave Reader
9/8/22 6:39 p.m.

I see chunks......if it is chunks, it's pretty terminal.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
9/9/22 8:41 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

You might want to get your glasses checked. There are pieces of metal in that oil. IF you need I'll circle some of the larger ones for you.

wae
wae PowerDork
9/9/22 8:49 a.m.

My friend's PT Cruiser was run about 4qts low on oil, developed a bad knock, and had some pretty glittery oil.  I dropped the pan and put new main and rod bearings in - well, hold on, maybe it was just one or the other; I may have just done rod bearings, but I don't remember now that I think about it.  But anyway, that reduced the noise pretty significantly, but it's still got a bit of a knock to it.  The oil comes out visually clean and I cut the filter open every other change now and it's fairly clean as well.  It's been 3 or 4 years and 30-40k miles.

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
9/9/22 8:50 a.m.

In reply to wae :

I've watched people drop oil pans in autozone parking lots to change bearings.

 

wspohn
wspohn SuperDork
9/9/22 12:17 p.m.
paddygarcia said:

OT but there are convenient tools to open up filters for entrail-reading. I do it occasionally in addition to analysis.

I had never seen that - thanks!  That would have come in handy when I was still racing and using a remote mount spin on filter!

Slight off subject diversion - another race showed up at the races with a newly rebuilt engine and was cussing because when he changed the filter after some break in laps, he saw glitter in it and figured that his new engine had gone south.  It put him back on track when I asked him "Did you by any chance have the oil cooler ultrasonically cleaned or even properly flushed out after your last engine went?"  (Oops!)

 

ross2004
ross2004 Reader
9/9/22 12:34 p.m.

Was the drain pan clean to start with? Chunks that big, I don't see how it wouldn't be making bad noises. 

Nockenwelle
Nockenwelle New Reader
9/9/22 12:54 p.m.

Danimal, are you certain about the color of the chunks? Maybe collect some on a white paper towell and hose off with carb cleaner and observe in the sunlight. Might be the brown tint of the oil residue fooling you. If truly gold/copper, that would be unusual (but not unheard-of) for bottom-end bearings, suggesting brass instead. No idea where brass wear pads or bushings might be in that motor but quite possibly valvetrain or timing chain. Either way, I don't subscribe to the notion that any healthy motor should shed that much debris.

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