GM building a 200 mile electric based on the Sonic?

I know this is all speculation and renders on the Tesla at this point... but this:

or this:

At the same price??

xflowgolf wrote: I know this is all speculation and renders on the Tesla at this point... but this: or this: At the same price??

Might as well say, why make a CUV when you can get a sedan at the same price? Just because they are both electric and supposedly a similar price point dioesn't mean that they have to be identical or even direct competitors any more than two similarly priced gasoline powered vehicles have to be the same. Otherwise, why would anyone buy anything other than a performancne sedan at any price point?

It looks like an I3 and I don't say that as a positive

Well, it has 4 wheels and kind of a copper color, so I'll give you that. Otherwise, it looks more like a modern CUV like the Escape.

I hope they sell millions so I can buy a battery pack when someone wrecks one.

I'd say that is a more than 4 wheels and copper color similarity just in the roofline/shape not the styling http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014-bmw-i3-front-three-quarter-in-orange.jpg

Jaynen wrote: I'd say that is a more than 4 wheels and copper color similarity just in the roofline/shape not the styling http://www.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2014-bmw-i3-front-three-quarter-in-orange.jpg

They are 2 box hatchbacks. Might as well complain that it looks like Golf. Iv'e spent 3 days with an i3. They aren't the same.

Chris_V wrote:

xflowgolf wrote: I know this is all speculation and renders on the Tesla at this point... but this: or this: At the same price??

Might as well say, why make a CUV when you can get a sedan at the same price? Just because they are both electric and supposedly a similar price point dioesn't mean that they have to be identical or even direct competitors any more than two similarly priced gasoline powered vehicles have to be the same. Otherwise, why would anyone buy anything other than a performancne sedan at any price point?

The thing with electric cars is people want a regular car, that is what's going to break through. When you can get a Camry or Altima type car all electric is when it will become popular with normal people. The Tesla is that, that GM supermini is not. People who buy that supermini are not regular car buyers

In reply to Kanaric

I agree entirely. If they want to sell a ton, a midsize Tesla model with 300 mile range that costs about $30k would sell boatloads. We aren't the typical consumer. I do love the shape of the Bolt though. Reminds me of the Renault Avantime.

kanaric wrote: The thing with electric cars is people want a regular car, that is what's going to break through. When you can get a Camry or Altima type car all electric is when it will become popular with normal people. The Tesla is that, that GM supermini is not. People who buy that supermini are not regular car buyers

I disagree. If anything history has shown the opposite to be true.

Didn't the look-at-me-I'm-driving-a-hybrid Prius sell tons more than the Civic that looked just like any other Civic? Why is there no non-hybrid CR-Z (seriously, WHY!)? Why didn't Toyota just hybridify some existing cars instead of expanding the Prius into it's own little mini-brand? Why is the Volt not just a hybrid Cruze? Even normal cars with the hybrid option have "HYBRID" in huge bright letters plastered all over them.

The Tesla looks more "normal" than a Leaf, but then people know a Tesla is electric anyway so it doesn't need anything to differentiate it from a gasoline car from the same maker.

the original prius was based on the Echo.

mad_machine wrote: the original prius was based on the Echo.

And underperformed sales expectations iirc...not that the Echo looked all that great anyway, so styling may or may not have played a part.

To me they both looked goofy.

And Tesla gets so much credit for changing the industry so radically. So much talk about the $35k sedan that they let GM do it first. With more range. Shocking.

I wouldn't cross-shop them based on what i know about the Sonic and the Teslas ive been around so far.

Didn't the look-at-me-I'm-driving-a-hybrid Prius sell tons more than the Civic that looked just like any other Civic?

The 2004 Prius was, to me, better styled than the 1st gen Civic Hybrid to begin with, and its technology was on another level. Having said that, i doubt those were major factors to most Prius buyers back then. Perceived quality/reliability was probably a bigger factor, and perception turned into a major reality as both the battery pack and cvt trans in the Civic turned out to be expensive failure points (attached to a car with less space and less mpg).

I think the Civic Hybrid suffered less from looking 'normal' and more from the fact that it wasnt as much better than a 'normal' civic as a 2004 Prius was than a 2004 Matrix. In mpg terms the Prius was MUCH improved over a Matrix while the Civic Hybrid was only mildly better than a Civic 1.7L.

Vigo hit it on the head. Goofy looks or not, the Prius -is- a better car than the Honda.

Looks wise, I did not find the second generation prius (the first one not based on the Echo) to be all offensive looking. While it had an unusual shape, it was not "out there" like some pure electrics tend to get. It was a car that was styled to be slippery to the wind and usable for moving people and things.

kanaric wrote:

Chris_V wrote:

xflowgolf wrote: I know this is all speculation and renders on the Tesla at this point... but this: or this: At the same price??

Might as well say, why make a CUV when you can get a sedan at the same price? Just because they are both electric and supposedly a similar price point dioesn't mean that they have to be identical or even direct competitors any more than two similarly priced gasoline powered vehicles have to be the same. Otherwise, why would anyone buy anything other than a performancne sedan at any price point?

The thing with electric cars is people want a regular car, that is what's going to break through. When you can get a Camry or Altima type car all electric is when it will become popular with normal people. The Tesla is that, that GM supermini is not. People who buy that supermini are not regular car buyers

Why do we look at the electric car market as only one kind of car will work, when we dont' look at that with the ICE car market? Why do all electric cars have to work for 100% of the possible driving population in order to be viable when we don't expect all ICE cars to be 100% perfect for the entire driving population? We don't expect to cross shop a Miata and an F250 or expect them to do the same jobs, or an Escape and an Accord... EVs can have different form factors and not comepete just because they are electric. A CUV form factor is just as effective as a sedan form factor. Moreso for more of the population, in fact, due to easier ingress and egress and carrying capacity. As far as practical cars, the Bolt wins out over the Model III much like a Forester wins out over a Mazda 6.

I like the styling of the Bolt concept/pre-production more than the I3.

Chris_V wrote: Why do we look at the electric car market as only one kind of car will work, when we dont' look at that with the ICE car market? Why do all electric cars have to work for 100% of the possible driving population in order to be viable when we don't expect all ICE cars to be 100% perfect for the entire driving population? We don't expect to cross shop a Miata and an F250 or expect them to do the same jobs, or an Escape and an Accord... EVs can have different form factors and not comepete just because they are electric. A CUV form factor is just as effective as a sedan form factor. Moreso for more of the population, in fact, due to easier ingress and egress and carrying capacity. As far as practical cars, the Bolt wins out over the Model III much like a Forester wins out over a Mazda 6.

How does a bolt win over a model III for "practical cars"?

Why are they crossed shop? Because the selection is minimal right now and they're claiming to occupy the same price point.

You may love sub compacts, and that's fine and dandy. I drive a compact, in the form of a mk6 VW Golf. I think that Bolt looks like a toy. I think the Spark styling looks cheap as well. I also would've never driven an Aveo. I'm not a GM hater, I just think choosing their Korean origin subcompact as a styling/platform mate from which to attack the electrified market is akin to shooting themselves in the foot before starting the race if they hope to achieve any volume.

In part we're comparing this, because if GM (or anybody) wants to move electrification forwards on a large scale, they can't do it with niche subcompacts. Ignore the electric part, just show the picture of that car to the generic car buying public. Most won't buy it. The same reason they don't buy gas 500's, or Smartcars, etc. let alone at the $30K+ price point.

I guess I don't see how a III and a Bolt are really that different? I'm a target buyer. I'm cross shopping them. They carry 4 people, I have 2 kids, they have 200+ mile range, and cost ~$30K+. For $30K I'm not buying a cheap looking subcompact whether ICE or electric. They are very different cars, sure, but they do the same thing (as opposed to your F250 vs. Miata comparo... different tools for different jobs). Whether you like it or not, I have a feeling they're going to be compared by people willing to buy an electric car.

In reply to xflowgolf:

The sonic is not based in a Korean car, it's Australian. Otherwise I agree with everything you said.

I want a volt but I've decided to wait and see the "new" one before making a decision.

xflowgolf wrote: How does a bolt win over a model III for "practical cars"?

Same way a CUV wins out over a sedan as a practical car. Didn't think this was that hard to figure out.

Why are they crossed shop? Because the selection is minimal right now and they're claiming to occupy the same price point.

Why, though? We don't do that with similarly priced ICE cars. Just because a minivan and a sedan are priced the same you don't cross shop them. YOU are JUST doing it due to power source not any other real reason, and thats BS.

You may love sub compacts, and that's fine and dandy. I drive a compact, in the form of a mk6 VW Golf. I think that Bolt looks like a toy. I think the Spark styling looks cheap as well. I also would've never driven an Aveo. I'm not a GM hater, I just think choosing their Korean origin subcompact as a styling/platform mate from which to attack the electrified market is akin to shooting themselves in the foot before starting the race if they hope to achieve any volume.

The Bolt looks like any other CUV or small 1.5 box hatch.

It's not aiming for the Model III market, but the electric CUV market. Your comments are like saying that SUVs and minivans won't sell because at their price point you can get sleek sedans.

In part we're comparing this, because if GM (or anybody) wants to move electrification forwards on a large scale, they can't do it with niche subcompacts. Ignore the electric part, just show the picture of that car to the generic car buying public. Most won't buy it. The same reason they don't buy gas 500's, or Smartcars, etc. let alone at the $30K+ price point.

It's a small SUV form factor (CUV). Those sell just fine. In fact if anyione wants to move electrification forward, then the most practical and fastest growing ICE segment is what should be emulated, and that's THIS FORM FACTOR. The smaller crossover. It's not Spark sized. It's Soul sized.

I guess I don't see how a III and a Bolt are really that different?

How can I make this any clearer than an Escape vs an Accord? THEY ARE DIFFERENT GODDAMN CARS!

You have price point and power source as the ONLY similarity and you use that to make them identical, but you WON'T DO THAT WITH ICE VEHICLES! Why not? Why won't you cross shop a Corvette and a Silverado? Why won't you cross shop a Mazda 6 and an Odyssey? Why won't you cross shop a Mercedes C class and a Golf R? The Bolt is a completely different category of car than the Model 3 much like a Golf is a completely different category of car than a Fusion.

The Bolt has seating for 5, something that people complaining about the Volt were loud about, it has a tall hatch, like any other hatchback/CUV, and it has longer range than the Volt or Leaf or Spark or 500e or electric Focus or electric Fit. It's more like a GM Soul with more range and better styling. It has a dealer network unlike Tesla. Just like the Escape is aiming for a completely differnt buyer than the Accord, the Bolt is aiming for a completely differnt buyer than the Tesla. And for similar reasons.