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JohnInKansas
JohnInKansas None
1/30/12 10:32 p.m.

First post, so I guess I'd better introduce myself. My name is John, I'm an engineer, and live in Wathena KS (St. Joseph, MO area). My wife has a '71 Fiat 850 Spider, I have a '64 Triumph TR4, we have a number of other assorted antique vehicles.

On to the hypothetical situation. I'm thinking of selling my not-fuel-efficient daily driver ('71 Chevy C10; 10mpg) and purchasing a 20-30 year-old compact or hatchback (pricerange $1500-2000). Whatever I settled on would have to be much more economical (30+mpg would be nice), daily-driver reliable, reasonably fun to drive, wih potential for some light autocross/spirited driving on weekends. Before somebody says it, it can't be a Miata; we have two large dogs and need the backseat space for them during the colder months.

Several late 80's-era VW Golf/GTI/Cabrios and an '81 Toyota Starlet have caught my eye. All fall within price range, in comparable states of repair.

How would the Starlet stack up against the Golf? Economy? Potential for sportiness/fun? Parts availability/price? I've read through a couple old threads here regarding the Starlet, but wondered if anyone had thoughts on a head-to-head comparison.

Links to hypothetical Craigspage ads. Golf is one of several available; Starlet is first I've seen listed in KS for quite some time.

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/2808177872.html http://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/2763476556.html

Thanks, John

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado SuperDork
1/30/12 10:52 p.m.

IIRC, Starlet has better fuel economy..but doesn't drive like the Golf. There's a reason the aftermarket for the Golf is bigger than that for the Starlet.

I'd suggest an A2 (or as the kids say, "Mk.2") Golf/Jetta. Better on the highway than their predecessors, lighter weight than their successors. Only problem is that they're in that "in-between" position at the moment..too old to find a lot of trim/interior pieces laying around, but too young to find much reproduction stuff yet.

ST_ZX2
ST_ZX2 HalfDork
1/30/12 11:12 p.m.

For a few other choices, I might add that I found the early Tercels to be an amusing car--I had a gen1 and a gen2 in college...as well as an early FWD Mazda GLC. That was a very nice car. I also has a FWD Colt with the 'twin stick'. Also quite fun.

I'm sure they will all be hard to find...

oldtin
oldtin SuperDork
1/30/12 11:30 p.m.

For parts and support, I'd go with the Mk 2 golf - always had a soft spot for those (even though I had a Mk 3 - engineered well - not screwed together all that great with a few crappy electrical bits). FWIW I currently have a bmw 318ti (the hatchback - also have a 63 TR4 and 72 MGB GT). In a pinch I've stuffed our Great Pyrenees and Doberman in the bmw - 28mpg mixed - 35 hwy - rear wheel drive, ltd slip...

mr2peak
mr2peak GRM+ Memberand Reader
1/30/12 11:43 p.m.

Does RWD matter to you? If yes, get the Starlet, if not, get the Golf. Parts are out there for tuning both cars, plenty of documented swaps.

Golf looks better and it's going to be easier to find almost everything for it. Sounds like you have plenty of toys, RWD included, so the Golf might be a better buy for you.

The Starlet is rare, but parts are out there. Look here: http://technotoytuning.com/productlist.php?vehicleid=7 They even sell a 4age mount kit, for the reasonable sum of $160. But buying something like a replacement fender could prove difficult..

Nitroracer
Nitroracer SuperDork
1/31/12 12:09 a.m.

I was about to ask how you found a Starlet that hasn't been rotary swapped and turned into a drag car - but then I read the ad.

Sure would be cool if they didn't rust instantaneously. I've never seen one in real life.

jimbob_racing
jimbob_racing Dork
1/31/12 6:40 a.m.

I had an '83 Starlet. It was a mint car from (of course) Atlanta that I dragged back to Pittsburgh. Mostly stock, it had the factory EFI engine and a set of mildly cut springs and aftermarket shocks. It was way underpowered so everywhere I went I was driving at 8/10s just to stay up/ahead of traffic. I never checked gas mileage but I'm sure it was in the mid 30s. It did okay autocrossing and I intended to swap a 4AGE into it but a divorce got in the way and I sold the car.

The aftermarket is thin but you can swap other Toyota front end parts onto it for bigger brakes and more suspension options. The rear is a live axle so anything goes back there, including an AE86 GTS LSD and disc brake combo. They are very light and with a simple bump in power can be very entertaining. Rust is the killer but the one in your pics looks good. Swap in some aftermarket Corbeaus like I did and a better steering wheel and you'll pretty much be done on the inside. Check out techno toy tuning for some of the important upgrade parts. The wheel bolt pattern is 4X114.3 which is AE86/Datsun Z and there are tons of options. Replica TRD flares are available as are light weight JDM bumpers.

This probably isn't the best choice for an everyday, do it all car but it will do what you want occasionally and will draw attention wherever you go. That price looks good assuming that the stock drivetrain is still installed and the car will easily get back on the road. I'd buy it myself but Ii have a new kitchen and furnace/hvac system on the top of my want list right now.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon SuperDork
1/31/12 7:23 a.m.

Welcome to the funny farm!

I hate VWs. Crappy build quality, corner cutting engineering, I could go on for a while.

I heart Starlets.

Having said that, the VW would win for your purposes (mostly for the DD thing) due to the much greater numbers running around. Engines can be found for $200 pretty easily and there's a huge and very active tuner community where your questions canget answered quick.

Starlets just weren't that common ever and while certainly a viable option, if something does go awry hunting parts etc will be a problem.

Now if you drop the DD requirement, the Starlet wins hands down.

Woody
Woody GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/31/12 7:43 a.m.

I'd drive to Kansas and back for a nice original Starlet.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
1/31/12 7:54 a.m.

I would vote Starlet.

JohnInKansas
JohnInKansas New Reader
1/31/12 8:03 a.m.

My brain says VW would be smarter. My heart says that Starlet would be WAY too much fun.

I could drive 15 minutes to go test drive a Golf (pick one). The Starlet is 4 hours away.

I've asked for more info on the Starlet. If its not a total E36 M3-heap, I may go see some friends in South Central Kansas this weekend...

icaneat50eggs
icaneat50eggs New Reader
1/31/12 8:10 a.m.

I'm not going to help much with your question, but haave some for you! I have recently picked up a 67 fiat 850 race/project/pile of crap and have never touched anything italian before. Is there a good website for general questions about these cars? any good parts sources? I'm in particular need of a windshield.

JohnInKansas
JohnInKansas New Reader
1/31/12 8:18 a.m.

Ha. Good luck.

The answer, I'm afraid, is not really. There is a parts company, Vick Autosport (vickauto.com), they have some stuff, but didn't see a windshield.

Aside from that, find another one, and be prepared to buy used parts from the Mediterranean. Speaking of which, my wife would rather have something else, she might sell hers to you. Body's fair, windshield is good :) engine runs well, rebuilt front suspension.

If you've got questions, email/message me.

pres589
pres589 Dork
1/31/12 8:33 a.m.

Okay, I believe the lot where the Starlet is shown is the one on 13th near I-135. The black FD RX-7 was the big give-away, that thing seems to travel from lot to lot about once a year, big weird heavy looking wheels on it. The place looks a little sketchy to be honest but maybe that's par for the course? In any case, Wathena is such a speed trap I would think a Starlet would be perfect; drive if flat out and no one will really notice. Plus they do seem like a great little lego's car; find the right bits you want to replace from one of the other million or so Toyota that shares bolt-on bits like front suspension, engines, etc.

NGTD
NGTD Dork
1/31/12 8:46 a.m.

Get an early 93-95 A3 Golf. The best ones have the least options. I DD'd one for years. They are great cars.

The A2's pricing has bottomed out and has been rising for a while.

m4ff3w
m4ff3w GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/31/12 9:22 a.m.
  • Starlet is RWD
  • Golf is FWD

  • Starlet wins.

ReverendDexter
ReverendDexter SuperDork
1/31/12 9:37 a.m.

This wouldn't even blip across my brain as a question, I'd buy the Starlet and the VW wouldn't even enter my brain as a possibility.

I have a little history with RWD Toyotas, though, so I'm definitely biased in that direction. Do the aforementioned Hachi parts swaps and unleash your inner hoon.

4cylndrfury
4cylndrfury SuperDork
1/31/12 9:56 a.m.

Just for fun, Im gonna leave this here

Hyabusa powered, TRD bodykit clad Starlet project at MotoIQ.

I love that site almost as much as this one

JohnInKansas
JohnInKansas New Reader
1/31/12 11:27 a.m.

Okay, so next question: Could a 13-b powered Starlet be made quiet? The wife has a really bad attitude about compact hatchbacks, says it would absolutely have to be as quiet as her 94 Ford Ranger (stock, non-holey exhaust). Any louder would earn me the title Super D-bag and quite possibly a kick in the 'nads.

I imagine it could be done with a 4AGE easily enough, but I haven't met many rotaries, so don't know about noise levels.

ReverendDexter
ReverendDexter SuperDork
1/31/12 11:37 a.m.

My experience is that even stock rotaries are louder than 4A-GEs with mild aftermarket exhuast.

Especially when you're warming them up in the morning. With FCs at least, they fire up and hold 3k rpm for at least 30 seconds.

Sorry 'bout the wife, I hope her awesomeness in other areas makes up for her very uncool attitude towards cars.

clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke Reader
1/31/12 11:57 a.m.

With a rather restrictive exhaust the rotary can be quiet. But that's not much fun.

My vote is Starlet.

JohnInKansas
JohnInKansas New Reader
1/31/12 11:57 a.m.

Eh, its not really towards cars in general, just hatchbacks. Too many fart pipes have spoilt her opinion of them, but she says I could change that if it was good and quiet. All my other vehicles are "loud" (glasspacks on just about everything). All that said, she's pretty all-around awesome.

If a swap was needed, maybe the 4age would be a better bet, even if slightly less powerful...

Or maybe the Golf IS the way to go...

pres589
pres589 Dork
1/31/12 12:07 p.m.

What about the noise cutting abilities of a turbocharger on a rotary? I would like to think one of those things along with the longest case turbo muffler you can fit under the car would go a long way to making it fairly quiet and still more than quick enough in a car made from aluminum cans and bubble gum.

That said, this was supposed to be about fuel economy, so get the Startlet, get the turbo, and combine them without the spinning triangles. Maybe a little Megasquirt, some EDIS stuff, etc?

jstein77
jstein77 Dork
1/31/12 12:12 p.m.

You'd probably need to budget in some new seats.

integraguy
integraguy SuperDork
1/31/12 1:30 p.m.

From reading the posts and then the responses of the OP, it really sounds like a viable alternative to what has been suggested is the Jetta. Granted, it's not a Golf, but it would be a tiny bit quieter than a Golf...since that was one objection, and it has as much of an aftermarket as the Golf (obviously). One downside? A Jetta is certainly NOT as rare as a Starlet, tho Mk 2 Jettas are getting hard(er?) to find.

If it has to be a hatchback, I want to voice my opinion for a 1st gen. Fiesta. Pretty much all the pros and cons of the Starlet...tho it's not RWD.

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