GRM quoted on Atlanta Craigslist

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/cto/5285772890.html

SuperFastMiatas has one of their cars listed on CL. They quote GRM in the ad. First time I've seen that on CL. LOL.

Neat. That seems like kind of a lot of money though.

It's not a horrible price for it depending on what else has been done to the car outside the swap. $3500 for the swap kit, $2500 for the car, $1300 for engine management (Assuming they got the AEM) and then the cost of the the Engine which was probably around a grand with all the wiring.

I would be a player in the 10-11K range but I'm still not sold on that being a workable long term solution and would rather have the LFX with the beefier transmission behind it for my V6 miata needs.

I like to drive this Honda swap. One the things I enjoy about the Miata is the crisp shifting. The GM trans in the V8 swap is beefier, but to me it gives the Miata too much of a "Camaro in a tight suit" feel. Can't argue with the V8's acceleration though.

I saw this car (or one just like it) at the Mitty last year and talked to the owner about the J-swap. It looked very well done to me. I'd have to drive a J Miata and an LS to compare. I think the J probably gets you 85% of the way there for 50% of the money.

Yay, we're internet famous.

Seen Bobby Rahal BMW of South Hills Pa. quote GRM for a 3-series on their web site before. Cool.

LuxInterior wrote: I like to drive this Honda swap. One the things I enjoy about the Miata is the crisp shifting. The GM trans in the V8 swap is beefier, but to me it gives the Miata too much of a "Camaro in a tight suit" feel. Can't argue with the V8's acceleration though.

First, use a T56 Magnum with the correct fluid. Makes a massive difference. Second, shift quick. The T56 likes to be shifted fast. Do that and it's highly precise and quick. Shift a non-Magnum slowly and it'll feel industrial.

I want to drive a J sometime. To me, it's more of a modified Miata than a complete transformation. I'd call it 50% of the swap, because while you get a different noise and a bit more torque, you're left with a drivetrain that's not upgraded. A well-done V8 is a different kind of animal from a drivetrain perspective, and you can hammer on it without worrying about tearing the trans out. Plus the gearing is fully realized, and the car feels like it could have come from the factory that way. Especially the NCs. But the J looks like it could be a fun middle ground. I want to get a feel for the character. If the 3.2L V6 has "explosive" torque, then I guess my 6.2 V8 is nuclear

There's a lot to be done in the engine bay. It shows the signs of a swap, such as a poorly positioned intake and a cobbled together radiator setup. The former looks like it's possible to sort out if you modify the intake manifold for a front entry and use an LS7 snorkel (I've seen the first half of that done) and the latter can be handled with a custom rad. Does the car have functioning power steering and AC?

The fact that the first comment is that $13,700 "seems like kind of a lot" is rather telling. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, especially for a car that was built by SuperFastMiatas. But if the market thinks this is overpriced, that's a problem for anyone looking to do the swap.

Keith Tanner wrote: The fact that the first comment is that $13,700 "seems like kind of a lot" is rather telling. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me, especially for a car that was built by SuperFastMiatas. But if the market thinks this is overpriced, that's a problem for anyone looking to do the swap.

Interesting point. I see a fair number of well done swaps pop up on CL, but they very often register as "looks like fun, but man that's a lot of money." While I can certainly imagine that most of them cost more to build than the asking price, I suspect doing a well-executed swap should always be approached as a money-losing proposition.

How much you lose becomes a different metric, influenced by the desirability of the swap, the execution, and the involvement of a well known backer like FM or SFM.

There was a lot of hacking on the stock intake manifold to end up with that. The original intake would be pointed straight into the cowl. It's patched, and the driver side of the plenum is cut open plumbed out the side.

I don't know how that affects the airflow to the other bank, but it probably isn't ideal.

Could come out the front of the plenum, but that pesky Honda power steering pump is in the way. I see an AC compressor in there, too.

It clearly needs velocity stacks and a hole in the hood. :D

As a data point: FM-built cars usually sell within a week, and in a couple of cases took only a couple of hours. Selling prices for the four that went through our site, according to my records: $47,000 (took about 2 hours), $47,000 (1 day), $45,000 (about a week) and $35,000 (under a week).

But the FM-built cars are different. They're new cars, not swaps. At the minimum, they're conversions. New engine, trans, rear end, halfshafts, driveshaft, hubs, bushings, shocks, springs, brakes, cooling system, fuel system, exhaust, etc, etc. Aesthetic problems are usually sorted out and the chassis is strengthened. They don't look like swaps when you pop the hood and you won't see junkyard pen marks on anything.

Now, not every home-built conversion is going to make those numbers. Even swaps done by other shops don't bring the same numbers, as we've seen with a few cars that have been listed. The FM cars are at the top of the market, but the market has decided what they're worth.

The execution is the big thing. Details like the intake, the radiator and the integration of the car and engine go a long way. You could definitely make money doing swaps if you do them well and pay attention to the details. In fact, I'll bet someone could take the V6 car in question and go through it and potentially make some money. Deal with the rad and the intake and make sure the AC/PS work. Maybe replace the damaged driver's seat. Make it look like the special car it is. Then take some really good pictures and write a good ad.

Tyler H wrote: There was a lot of hacking on the stock intake manifold to end up with that. The original intake would be pointed straight into the cowl. It's patched, and the driver side of the plenum is cut open plumbed out the side. I don't know how that affects the airflow to the other bank, but it probably isn't ideal. Could come out the front of the plenum, but that pesky Honda power steering pump is in the way. I see an AC compressor in there, too. It clearly needs velocity stacks and a hole in the hood. :D

I've seen one with the throttle body at the front, so that's possible. The presence of an AC compressor doesn't mean it has AC, that's certainly a question to be answered. In my experience, cleanly integrating the AC was the hardest part of the conversion to "productionize". We ended up having to make custom fittings to be brazed on to pipes, but it is possible to patch two systems together with less effort if you're only doing one or two.

More thoughts, then it's back to work.

Designing and building a cheap swap is difficult. It's like building Locost parts - you're dealing with a very price-sensitive market that may not reward any extra effort you put into it, and margins have to be thin. If you advertise how cheap the swap can be, it'll devalue any cars you build. I applaud SFM for taking it on, and I do really want to drive one. I think the nature of the engine may suit a Catfish pretty well.

Oh good lord, he just won't stop posting.

Here's the car I saw with the front throttle body. Also, note the different cooling routing - is he running the coolant through the radiator in the other direction?

And here's a post from the owner today:

If I could do it all over again, I would just do the side intake manifold design from Minitec. This eliminates having to do anything to the hood, and will save a whole bunch of time. We spent lots of effort for our fancy front entry manifold that was really just a waste of time. We are going to a side entry manifold this winter to get back to a stock hood. Ultimately I want power-steering and the side manifold makes that easier too.

There's a reference in the thread on Miata.net that mentions that kit #31 was delivered a couple of weeks ago. SFM is moving some product!

I am still processing "explosive torque" and "v6" in the same sentence.

I guess it is worth that money given the costs and labor, but I think Keith has a point that it would probably sell easier if they finished up some of the details.

Comparing to something somewhat similar you could look at the guys at Prime that do the MR2 swaps. They sell cars that are basically just taken off the street and swapped to the later series motor without really doing any finishes on them, but they are so low priced overall and the swap aspect ends up being very unobtrusive because the motor is a similar design that it's hard to argue.

You start getting into the $15k range though and the car has a ripped seat and the swap is kinda hacky on one or two aspects and it gets harder to market it. I'm not saying that the price isn't right, but you have to consider that people willing to fork over the cash at that level (and it has to be cash, no loans) don't want to think they are buying a project.

dean1484 wrote: I am still processing "explosive torque" and "v6" in the same sentence.

2300lbs or so and the engine is putting down 262hp and 232lb/ft of torque. You start getting into that range of power with a Miata and it feels explosive. The power Keith and FM puts down with the LS conversions is ridiculous to the point of being useless in low gears.

I'll agree that it takes some sensitivity - although during the Targa, I was able to give my car full throttle in the wet in first gear as long as I didn't break them free off the line. According to our video crew, I was launching as hard as the Subarus. I'm assuming the Subaru guys were lighting it up. As we all remember from high school physics, the coefficient of sliding friction is lower than the coefficient of static friction, so once you bust them free you're slow. That was with the old 5.3, which was pretty weedy by comparison to the current sledgehammer.

On my car, I have to use my brain on tight 2nd gear corners. I can smear the back end coming out of Turn 2 at Laguna Seca if desired, but it's up to me.

David S. Wallens wrote: Yay, we're internet famous.

And TV famous - a bunch of your banners, etc. were on "Chasing Classic Cars" last night. Apparently Wayne took a couple cars to the "car show" portion of a Lemons event.

kazoospec wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote: Yay, we're internet famous.

And TV famous - a bunch of your banners, etc. were on "Chasing Classic Cars" last night. Apparently Wayne took a couple cars to the "car show" portion of a Lemons event.

Yep I saw that.

The whole intake thing could be easily fixed by using the J35A7/8 intake. Lower profile, bigger opening, more flow for LOTS more power all the way through the range. I paid $5 for mine at an LKQ 40% off weekend after returning another factory intake manifold from my old F22B2. Biggest "problem" with using the J35A7/8 intake is the DBW throttle body, which can be solved with a readily available $50 adapter to convert it back to regular ol' cable throttle. I paid $70 for a set of J32A2 heads that look brand new under the valvecovers.

I just need to take the plunge and build one of these things already. An $80 junkyard 3.5L shortblock and all I'd need is the swap kit and a Miata.

This swap interests me more than an ls swap, and it isn't the cost. To me, Miatas aren't supposed to be heavy hitting power cars. This swap bumps up the power reliably, but doesnt turn it up to 11 as much as a v8. The j motor makes all the power you can realistically use on the street without getting in trouble all the time.

I don't have the physical ability to do a swap like this anymore. To somebody like me, this car is appealing because it runs and drives right from the start and I could chip away at the small issues over time and make it perfect as my budget and body allows.

I think that the V6 is perfect for a Miata and it's exactly what I'd like in a street car that may see an occasional autocross or lapping day.

Keith Tanner wrote:

Tyler H wrote: There was a lot of hacking on the stock intake manifold to end up with that. The original intake would be pointed straight into the cowl. It's patched, and the driver side of the plenum is cut open plumbed out the side. I don't know how that affects the airflow to the other bank, but it probably isn't ideal. Could come out the front of the plenum, but that pesky Honda power steering pump is in the way. I see an AC compressor in there, too. It clearly needs velocity stacks and a hole in the hood. :D

In my experience, cleanly integrating the AC was the hardest part of the conversion to "productionize". We ended up having to make custom fittings to be brazed on to pipes, but it is possible to patch two systems together with less effort if you're only doing one or two.

Agree. I've done it with MR2 V6 swaps. Replace the entire AC system and custom lines to adapt the V6 compressor to the chassis hard lines. It cost about $400, but the time and effort to seamlessly adapt it to the car is the real investment. My car also had full emissions equipment (Evap, EGR, Cats, etc.)

I don't think there is any way to make money on swaps, to FM-like quality standards, unless you value your labor at $0/hr.

FM cars haul in the cash because of the support network. It's more than the sum of the components. That's the difference between a turnkey car and someone else's swap.