GRM reviews the Volt

In reply to Teh E36 M3:

The Electric Focus has been announced, the normal and plug-in versions of the C-Max has been announced, and plug in versions of the Escape, Fusion, and MKZ have all been announced.

The Escape Hybrid pre-dated all the GM stuff, so it's not as if nothing has been done.

Oh, and don't mistake action for achievement. Just because someone has a bunch of stuff available does not mean that the one who does not is not achieving- the Fusion/MKZ hybrids lead their class in terms of FE. So....

GM can spin it how they wish, but I just don't see the Volt as a stand out against the Toyota or Honda hybrids.

Some of the review comments make me wonder how long its been since they've driven a hybrid.

tuna55 wrote:

SVreX wrote: using my tax dollars.

So do you use oil? Education? Roads? Everything is subsidized. I am not saying that is good (obviously to many, my politics would dictate the opposite) but the point is that even the Volts direct alternatives (gas powered cars) are subsidized, so you can't take that out on the Volt without taking it out on every other car out there.

Show me where to get my $7500 credit on a Corvette.

Teh E36 M3 wrote: Anyone know when/if/and what Ford is doing about hybrids? All I see is the Escape and Fusion, while Chevy really seems to be kicking it up with trucks, SUV's cars, etc. Across the entire line. I'd really like to see the Flex with a volt-ish drivetrain that gets 35 combined. It's that 6th seat argument that the Mazda5 makes.

Agreed. I'd like to see Ford do more, but they seem to be focusing on the EcoBoost stuff for bigger vehicles. Prior to trying the Volt, the Fusion was my favorite hybrid application.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

SVreX wrote: using my tax dollars.

So do you use oil? Education? Roads? Everything is subsidized. I am not saying that is good (obviously to many, my politics would dictate the opposite) but the point is that even the Volts direct alternatives (gas powered cars) are subsidized, so you can't take that out on the Volt without taking it out on every other car out there.

Show me where to get my $7500 credit on a Corvette.

Remember how the oil companies are subsidized? You get it every time you fill up at the pump. Also every time you drive down the road. Also, the fact that GM got tons of bailout money to make that Corvette with. There are lots of ways in which you get a bunch of money on that new Corvette. I didn't say it was the same amount of money (if you could even put a number on it), but it's there.

DILYSI Dave wrote: Show me where to get my $7500 credit on a Corvette.

If GM could make the case to the government that they needed help to compete in the Corvette's segment and that there were significant jobs to be added in building a vast number of Corvettes, and that it would fund significant research on new technology which would lead to a better ability to compete in that arena on an ongoing basis, then you might see such a thing.

Tuna's point about our subsidizing all cars stands, but irrespective of whether or not it's a good idea, it's not hard to see why the subsidy for a Volt is a different case from the Subsidy for a Corvette, or for cars in general by way of fuel...

Subsidies vary depending on their theoretical goals and estimated returns. I have neither access to the data nor the training to understand it completely, but that basic distinction seems pretty clear.

tuna55 wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

SVreX wrote: using my tax dollars.

So do you use oil? Education? Roads? Everything is subsidized. I am not saying that is good (obviously to many, my politics would dictate the opposite) but the point is that even the Volts direct alternatives (gas powered cars) are subsidized, so you can't take that out on the Volt without taking it out on every other car out there.

Show me where to get my $7500 credit on a Corvette.

Remember how the oil companies are subsidized? You get it every time you fill up at the pump. Also every time you drive down the road. Also, the fact that GM got tons of bailout money to make that Corvette with. There are lots of ways in which you get a bunch of money on that new Corvette. I didn't say it was the same amount of money (if you could even put a number on it), but it's there.

The power companies are also subsidized, so that doesn't wash. The road use is equivalent-ish between the two. But the only one that directly impacts my bank account is the Volt (or other hippy-mobiles).

SVreX wrote: "Considering the various incentives..." is also an invalid comparison. GM's inability to build the car in a manner that enabled it to compete in the real world without continued financial bailout is shameful. I was thoroughly excited to see the car being developed, and completely disappointed when I saw the pricetag. I rule it out on that issue alone.

Ever consider that the MSRP might be what it is because there IS a tax credit? IIRC, the credit lasts for 200,000+ plug ins and all electric cars, so it's going to be a while before it goes away. When it goes away, I bet the sale price comes down. Maybe not, but only time will tell.

Bryce

one thing i need to know is how are they going to collect road taxes on cars like this? since they don't use (much) gasoline in some instances, the owners won't be paying very much in the way of gasoline taxes. seeing how the government has gone after people for making their own biodiesel, i think they might try to go after electric cars somehow- or maybe even go to a mileage based tax on all cars, which gets rid of some of the benefit of getting a car like this..

I can see it now. Buyer gets huge tax credit for buying hybrid car. IRS comes after buyer for not paying use taxes on using said car. Perfectly epitomizes how the government works IMHO :)

DILYSI Dave wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

SVreX wrote: using my tax dollars.

So do you use oil? Education? Roads? Everything is subsidized. I am not saying that is good (obviously to many, my politics would dictate the opposite) but the point is that even the Volts direct alternatives (gas powered cars) are subsidized, so you can't take that out on the Volt without taking it out on every other car out there.

Show me where to get my $7500 credit on a Corvette.

Remember how the oil companies are subsidized? You get it every time you fill up at the pump. Also every time you drive down the road. Also, the fact that GM got tons of bailout money to make that Corvette with. There are lots of ways in which you get a bunch of money on that new Corvette. I didn't say it was the same amount of money (if you could even put a number on it), but it's there.

The power companies are also subsidized, so that doesn't wash. The road use is equivalent-ish between the two. But the only one that directly impacts my bank account is the Volt (or other hippy-mobiles).

You and I are not far apart here. I am not trying to be mean, but absolutely everything I just mentioned (and a whole lot more) directly affects your wallet. Maybe not in lump sum, right now form, but it does.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Teh E36 M3: The Electric Focus has been announced, the normal and plug-in versions of the C-Max has been announced, and plug in versions of the Escape, Fusion, and MKZ have all been announced. The Escape Hybrid pre-dated all the GM stuff, so it's not as if nothing has been done. Oh, and don't mistake action for achievement. Just because someone has a bunch of stuff available does not mean that the one who does not is not achieving- the Fusion/MKZ hybrids lead their class in terms of FE. So....

Sweet. Ford is kicking ass- don't get my post wrong- they have done some really neat stuff across the spectrum, I am really hoping that someone nails the "family car" (ie: wagon, minivan etc) segment with something that gets decent (30+ combined) mpg. Sedans don't really give me what I need.

I think the Volt's "electric w/ gas backup" hybrid solution is an excellent fit for how most people use their car. I want US manufacturers to succeed. But regardless of other subsidies (or not) on roads, oil, houses, or whatever, the Volt gets an ADDITIONAL $7,500 subsidy. I'm being forced to help pay for someone else's new car. I have never been fortunate enough to own a new car but I'm paying for someone else's. Really, my problem isn't with the car itself but the government program stuck on top of it. But nonetheless it sours me on the Volt. I think many others feel the same way.

David

foxtrapper wrote: GM can spin it how they wish, but I just don't see the Volt as a stand out against the Toyota or Honda hybrids. Some of the review comments make me wonder how long its been since they've driven a hybrid.

The Volt is a stand out because it can be driven without using gas. The other hybrids get improved mileage, but cannot go purely electric. The Leaf can, but it has limited range. The Volt can get you back and forth to work on pure electric, and get great mileage when the gas motor has to kick in.

The Volt is the first truly usable electric / hybrid vehicle.

Like has been said. It isn't the right answer for everyone, but for some it is a great alternative.

Teh E36 M3 wrote:

alfadriver wrote: In reply to Teh E36 M3: The Electric Focus has been announced, the normal and plug-in versions of the C-Max has been announced, and plug in versions of the Escape, Fusion, and MKZ have all been announced. The Escape Hybrid pre-dated all the GM stuff, so it's not as if nothing has been done. Oh, and don't mistake action for achievement. Just because someone has a bunch of stuff available does not mean that the one who does not is not achieving- the Fusion/MKZ hybrids lead their class in terms of FE. So....

Sweet. Ford is kicking ass- don't get my post wrong- they have done some really neat stuff across the spectrum, I am really hoping that someone nails the "family car" (ie: wagon, minivan etc) segment with something that gets decent (30+ combined) mpg. Sedans don't really give me what I need.

I would not go that far. But I think it's clear that there will not be a "hailo" Hybrid coming from Dearborn. More direct versions of cars that are currently made.

Although, the C-Max is basically a 5. Not sure of the timing of that car, but I think it was announced when they were shown last fall.

Joe Gearin wrote:

foxtrapper wrote: GM can spin it how they wish, but I just don't see the Volt as a stand out against the Toyota or Honda hybrids. Some of the review comments make me wonder how long its been since they've driven a hybrid.

The Volt is a stand out because it can be driven without using gas. The other hybrids get improved mileage, but cannot go purely electric. The Leaf can, but it has limited range. The Volt can get you back and forth to work on pure electric, and get great mileage when the gas motor has to kick in. The Volt is the first truly usable electric / hybrid vehicle. Like has been said. It isn't the right answer for everyone, but for some it is a great alternative.

Not sure when it will happen, but the current fleet of Hybrids (most of which have been in production for a LONG time now) are all working toward a Plug In version, which does allow for non- gas mileage. Prius, Camry, Honda, Fustion, Escape- etc. AFAIK, all of them will be doing it, soon.

alfadriver wrote: I would not go that far. But I think it's clear that there will not be a "hailo" Hybrid coming from Dearborn. More direct versions of cars that are currently made. Although, the C-Max is basically a 5. Not sure of the timing of that car, but I think it was announced when they were shown last fall.

Autoblog was reporting that Ford axed the Grand C-Max (sliding-door Mazda5-clone minivan one) and the C-Max hybrid, leaving just the vanilla C-Max w/doors (otherwise known as a tall, stupid-looking Focus). This was like a few days ago.

Sad, honestly, as another 5-like vehicle would be cool. I don't think people realize just how useful and efficient they are. Slidey-doors rock.

$16K, 42mpg, best in class head room and rear legroom, weighs 2660lbs, has dynamic brakes and steering and looks good.

Maintains its fuel mileage for the 1200 miles a week I average.

I'll stick with the 2011 Elantra

In my particular case 40 miles a day is useless.

tuna55 wrote: Remember how the oil companies are subsidized? You get it every time you fill up at the pump. Also every time you drive down the road. Also, the fact that GM got tons of bailout money to make that Corvette with. There are lots of ways in which you get a bunch of money on that new Corvette. I didn't say it was the same amount of money (if you could even put a number on it), but it's there.

I just noticed this post. What you are not taking into consideration is the performance of the actual company. The Corvette is not directly subsidized as the cost to make a Corvette remains the same. GM didn't go bankrupt because it wasn't subsidized, it went bankrupt due to poor management/business decisions. The cost to build a Corvette hasn't changed, nor is it the reason GM went bankrupt. Just because a company lost a lot of money, does not mean a vehicle is "subsidized" via the loans they've been given.

How you can even equate the two doesn't even make sense to me. Anywho, back on topic lol.

aussiesmg wrote: ... and looks good.

You almost had me!

Bryce

You have to put all that space inside somewhere. I have had a fullsize wheelchair in the trunk of the Elantra.

Just saying..

Joe Gearin wrote:

foxtrapper wrote: GM can spin it how they wish, but I just don't see the Volt as a stand out against the Toyota or Honda hybrids. Some of the review comments make me wonder how long its been since they've driven a hybrid.

The Volt is a stand out because it can be driven without using gas. The other hybrids get improved mileage, but cannot go purely electric. The Leaf can, but it has limited range. The Volt can get you back and forth to work on pure electric, and get great mileage when the gas motor has to kick in. The Volt is the first truly usable electric / hybrid vehicle. Like has been said. It isn't the right answer for everyone, but for some it is a great alternative.

I rarely HAVE to drive more than 20 miles a day. The theory behind this car works well for me at this time. Also, the thought of thumbing my nose at gas lines if a 1973-type fuel crises ever happens again is very appealing. If the vehicle price was $10K cheaper AND I could still get a $7500 credit, I would seriously consider one. I gotta believe either the price is going to come down or someone is going to come up with something better. Right now, though, I just can't justify the initial outlay.

HiTempguy wrote: How you can even equate the two doesn't even make sense to me. Anywho, back on topic lol.

While I agree that equating the two was foolish, I'm torn on this sort of subsidy.

Waiting for gas prices to be high enough to start getting serious about alternatives is a way worse idea for just about everyone. Is there a better way to get companies to do so ahead of time?

The "free market" sure isn't going to do it early. Because while doing it early is demonstrably better for just about everybody in the long run, the one entity it isn't better for is the company doing the innovation. The manufacturer that does it (without subsidies) is going to get out competed in the short run, and likely won't be around to benefit later, while the companies that didn't bother gobble up the advances made by the now defunct manufacturer. This is bad for us, bad for the company doing the innovation and only good for the company steadfastly refusing to innovate, knowing that it cab buy up it's screwed over competition later. Waiting for it to get worse and worse until it is immediately competitive is disastrous both for the individual consumer and for the economy as a whole.

In addition to being better prepared economically as the price goes up, any lessening of dependence on oil in general lessens dependence on foreign oil and directly strengthens the country's position.

Is that worth $7500/Volt? I doubt it. Thus me being torn. I'm not inherently against the concept, but I think the actual #s are likely extreme.

I'm leaving out the absence of paying fuel taxes as a separate (but interesting) diversion on the subject.

Here is the complete thinking I have on this subject...

If you gave me $33k and said "Buy a car" it wouldn't be that one. It is completely underwhelming at that price point regardless of powertrain. You have to be the eco-friendly version of the guy who bought the 60 inch TV when it was $12k to find value in that car. There are more people like me than than there are like that and so... fail.

I'll revisit the subject in 2020.

JG Pasterjak wrote: Chevy is way ahead of you. The gas engine is programmed to come on every few weeks or so and warm the fluids to proper operating temps. It prevents seals from drying out, prevents gas from getting stale, and all of the other stuff associated with prolonged non-use. I believe one of the benchmarks is for the car to use at least a tank (8 gallons) of fuel per year. jg

Good to know that they sorted that out already. Sounds like a solid effort and a leap forward!

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: Here is the complete thinking I have on this subject... If you gave me $33k and said "Buy a car" it wouldn't be that one. It is completely underwhelming at that price point regardless of powertrain. You have to be the eco-friendly version of the guy who bought the 60 inch TV when it was $12k to find value in that car. There are more people like me than than there are like that and so... fail. I'll revisit the subject in 2020.

Here's the thing though - most people buying these are leasing them, and the lease rates are lower than most other cars in that price category. Add in the potential fuel savings and the total out of pocket for this car every month might even be less than a Malibu/Camry/Etc. It's not looking at the whole picture to focus purely on the sticker.

And frankly, it makes sense that these cars would be economical to lease compared to their price-peers - a lot of the "added value" of the typical entry level luxury cars that sell in the low 30's diminishes over time. People pay extra to have fancy interiors with fresh new leather, the latest tech gadgets, the newest body style, whatever. 4 years on, the sheen is all but off these features, and the prices people are willing to pay for these cars off lease reflects it. The major "added value" of the volt is reduced operating costs through fuel savings, and that has the same actual dollar value 4 years in the future as it does today (maybe more if fuel prices rise), so it's not surprising that these cars will retain more value.