GRM reviews the Volt

Comparing the Volt to any traditional internal combustion vehicle is valid IF you're driving outside the Volt's design parameters.

If your daily commute is under 40 miles, however, you're deep into apples vs. oranges territory. The Hyundai, for example, is 40 mpg under the best circumstances, the Volt is 40+ mpg under the worst circumstances. Real world testing gave us ~200 mpg. No E36 M3.

I look forward to more products in this category. Competition improves the breed, so a similar product from Ford/Nissan/Honda/Toyota will make them all better in the long run.

How much juice does it take to recharge? Or has that been covered... I didn't read the whole thread, as I figured it may flounder... Just wondering if that coat is factored in to the 250 mpg.

Joey

A while back I came up with some general numbers for the cost to charge the Volt.

According to the Volt website, at 120vac, it takes about 10 hours to charge the car. At 240vac, it takes about 4 hours to charge the car.

According to the Volt owner's manual, the car either plugs into a 120vac, 15 amp receptacle or a 240vac, 20amp receptacle. I couldn't find on their website if it mentions the exact power required for charging, but the maximum you can safely get from the 120vac receptacle is about 1500 watts and the maximum you can safely get from the 240vac receptacle is about 3800 watts, so we'll use those values as worst case. Note that 1500 watts is about what the average hair dryer takes for operation, so we're talking about the same impact on the electrical grid as one or two teenage daughters getting ready for a date.

To make the math easy, I'll assume the cost for electricity from the local utility is 10 cents/kilowatt-hour. Note that this varies all over the place, depending on where you live, but it's fairly close to the national average.

10 hours x 1500 watts x 10 cents/kw-hr = $1.50 to charge the car at 120vac.

4 hours x 3800 watts x 10 cents/kw-hr = $1.52 to charge the car at 240vac.

So, the cost to charge the car is more or less about $1.50 a day no matter what voltage you use, which agrees with the promotional material I've seen online.

If you use 120vac it can plug into any regular receptacle. If you use 240vac they have a specific charging module that has to be installed. I've seen a cost for the charger of $490, plus installation, which will depend on if you have 240vac readily available in the garage or not, the hourly rates for electricians in your area, and so on.

DrBoost wrote: One question for those WHO ACTUALLY KNOW this. I read that when the batteries are depleated and the engine is acting as a generator and driving the wheels the charging output is intentionally reduced so the batteries won't actually be charging. Is that true? If so, it's typicall GM assinine-ness. It'd be nice to be able to put some juice in the battery while I drive to make my at home charge take less time.

Yes, sort of.

When the charge is depleted, the batteries act in the same way as they would in a "traditional" hybrid. They regenerate under deceleration and discharge while assisting acceleration and cruising. They operate within a certain capacity window. Technically you wouldn't be able to fully charge them anyway, unless you coasted down a reeeeeeeeal long hill.

If memory serves, a "full" charge in the volt is about 85% of theoretical battery capacity. The gas engine kicks on at about 15%, and I believe the traditional hybrid operation is in the 15-25% area. Supposedly that use of the batteries—never fully charging or discharging the pack—maximizes the life and charge cycles of the pack.

jg

joey48442 wrote: How much juice does it take to recharge? Or has that been covered... I didn't read the whole thread, as I figured it may flounder... Just wondering if that coat is factored in to the 250 mpg. Joey

A "full charge" will take about 9kw. In Palm Coast, FL, that'll cost you about $1.10 off peak or $1.40 on peak.

jg

Here's something i don't know, however: I keep seeing the cost of installing the 240V charger listed in various sources. I've not seen anybody referring to whether or not you can install the 240V charger yourself (assuming you're qualified to work with wiring and electrical services) and save the install money.

jg

DrBoost wrote: One question for those WHO ACTUALLY KNOW this. I read that when the batteries are depleated and the engine is acting as a generator and driving the wheels the charging output is intentionally reduced so the batteries won't actually be charging. Is that true? If so, it's typicall GM assinine-ness. It'd be nice to be able to put some juice in the battery while I drive to make my at home charge take less time.

It is definitely true that once the battery pack is depleted, the powertrain only charges it enough to keep the car working "normal" and prevent the batteries from getting damaged. This is brilliant, and to charge the battery pack all the way back up with the gas engine wouldn't make any sense at all. The whole point of that big battery pack you're lugging around is to allow you to NOT use gas, burning gas to charge batteries is highly inefficient. Cars like a Prius, Insight, 2-mode hybrid, etc. can't do this because their battery isn't big enough, you can only go a mile or two on a full charge before it needs some help. The Volt uses ONLY electricity when you start the drive until the battery is nearly dead. At that point, the engine fires up, and through some very clever motor/inverter/engine controls, the wheels are then turned either by the engine, the motor(s), or both depending on driving conditions. For an extreme example to make the point, the battery goes low while you're climbing Pikes Peak and the engine fires up to get you to the top. Turn around and go back down...no need for the engine to charge the battery, right? The engine stays off, the battery gets charged in regen mode, and the car goes EV for the next 20 miles even though your battery is pretty low. Once you hit flat ground, the engine puts out just enough energy to go into "charge sustain" mode...keeping the battery charged just enough so you have enough to accelerate, but not raising the state of charge any more than required.

There's tons of videos out there that explain how this works and why it's better. The moral of the story is that you want to burn the minimum amount of gas possible (for many reasons), so it makes no sense to burn gas to charge the battery. If you only charge the battery for an hour, perhaps while you stop for lunch, your car will drive on electric only until the battery is low and repeat the cycle. This is MUCH more efficient than using gas...which is why the Volt gets 200+ mpg for city driving instead of the 45+ mpg that it gets on pure gas (like a Prius).

Bryce

When I was looking for the information on the Volt website (it was kind of hard to find) they seemed to indicate the charger had to be installed by a licensed electrician. I don't know if that's absolutely mandatory, or if it's a CYA in case an owner tries to do it themselves and gets electrocuted.

I am loving this thread. It has totally not degenerated into utter crap. This is amazing.

stuart in mn wrote: When I was looking for the information on the Volt website (it was kind of hard to find) they seemed to indicate the charger had to be installed by a licensed electrician. I don't know if that's absolutely mandatory, or if it's a CYA in case an owner tries to do it themselves and gets electrocuted.

They would need to say it that way for legal reasons. The building codes have this requirement, and I guarantee their legal department would go nuts if they didn't have it.

Additionally, they may have written stipulations into the warranty which could void the warranty without a licensed electrician.

IMHO, if you are buying a $40,000 car, it doesn't make any sense (for warranty and legal reasons) to save a couple of hundred bucks by NOT hiring an electrician.

Thanks Stuart and JG. At my 9 cents per kilowatt, and 4 bucks per gallon gas, that works out to 177 mpg! Pretty awesome. My round trip commute is about 65 miles, all highway. So I would use about 2.50 in gas at 4 bucks per gallon, and about 90 cents of electrons... So 3.40 total in gas. So the car would get 76.44 effective mpg for me! That's awesome!

Joey

Over my Miata, driving 65 per day, 5 days a week, the volt would save me 105 per month. Not enough to make me switch, but enticing if I was going to make a payment anyway!

Joey

Getting people to do and understand the math is really the first step to us making informed judgments, even if the result isnt good enough to make us want to spend the bucks yet. It is really only a matter of time. In spite of the number of hybrids on the road after this long, a lot of people still think that the price barrier is there when for used cars it really isnt.

Someone earlier implied that 42mpg for 16k is some kind of good deal. I got 50 for <$4k and NashCo got the same car for even less. Once these things have been on the market long enough they'll be cheap enough that this whole price-aversion thing will go out the window. The clock is already ticking on that. Im happy to see cars with a billion dollars of technology in them that ill be able to pick up for $5grand in the not too distant future.

Datsun1500 wrote:

joey48442 wrote: Over my Miata, driving 65 per day, 5 days a week, the volt would save me 105 per month. Not enough to make me switch, but enticing if I was going to make a payment anyway! Joey

Going on the assumption that an Elantra gets the same MPG as your Miata so the $105 per month savings would be the same number, it's only 12 years before you break even on the price! That is the part that does not make sense to me, it is not really a savings over what is already out there.. It would not work for my car needs, but I do think it is a good step in the right direction. Much better than the EV-1 vehicle.

Right. I mean if I was shopping for a new car I would consider it. But To trade for an old car that I own out right it's not.

Joey

Datsun1500 wrote:

joey48442 wrote: Over my Miata, driving 65 per day, 5 days a week, the volt would save me 105 per month. Not enough to make me switch, but enticing if I was going to make a payment anyway! Joey

That is the part that does not make sense to me, it is not really a savings over what is already out there..

Because oftentimes people pay more for cool E36 M3. Purchases are frequently a combination of logical and emotional rationale.

Here are some personal examples: My Wusthof chef's knife. Yes, a cheaper knife would have functioned just as well, but I only live once, so why not splurge on that one tool forged from a single slab of German steel, and cut back on something else that I don't consider important. My Vanson motorcycle jacket. Back when I purchased it, which was four years before I had an operable motorcycle, I spent two weeks' part-time pay on it to prepare myself for the fateful moment that I get a working bike of my own.

A Chevy Volt. To someone out there, it is a damn cool and damn nice car that says to them, I support new technology; new American technology at that. It may also say to that person, look, I'd like to use as little dino juice as possible, but it would also be nice to have something new. These are the reasons that I can see the Volt selling.

For a product to succeed, it needs to be the first, the cheapest, or the best. There have been other hybrids released already that are competitively priced by providing a less complex product. I really think that GM gave their shot at being the best, even if it means that they had to move the price point up to cope with reality. Because of the Volt, I'm probably going to look at GM products a bit more closely in the future.

I'm all for it, give the appliance folks something new to clamor over and leave more gasoline for the fun cars.

I'm still waiting for VW to bring over those diesel 80 mpg Lupos.

Datsun1500 wrote:

joey48442 wrote: Over my Miata, driving 65 per day, 5 days a week, the volt would save me 105 per month. Not enough to make me switch, but enticing if I was going to make a payment anyway! Joey

Going on the assumption that an Elantra gets the same MPG as your Miata so the $105 per month savings would be the same number, it's only 12 years before you break even on the price! That is the part that does not make sense to me, it is not really a savings over what is already out there.. It would not work for my car needs, but I do think it is a good step in the right direction. Much better than the EV-1 vehicle.

You should have read my earlier post, Elantra gets an average of 42 mpg. Much much higher mileage than a Miata.

Further in my case I do 1200 miles every 5 days so only a few would be on electric supply.

It doesn't come with a manual so I am not buying it.

GM Offers Buyback

Will be interesting to see who/how many will take them up on the offer.

How long does it take to recoup the $20K's overage.

So people are fine with cars that contain 15 or more gallons of flammable liquid but afraid of some batteries?

Recent article about GM's offer to buy back Volt's if owners are concerned about the fire hazard.

Interesting tidbit is the poor Volt sales so far.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203833104577072823183908422.html?mod=djemAutos_h

David

With all the discussion of the cost of operating electric vehicles vs the cost of gas operation, I think that one point has been missed. Once enough folks are taking advantage of $1.50 "tanks" of electricity for their commutes rather than $50 tanks of gas, the taxes generated for road repair etc. by the sales of gas are going to have to be replaced. Uncle Sam is going to have to figure out how to recoup those funds. What percentage of a gallon of gas is tax now? If it is 40% the government is going to have to find a way to charge you an additional $20 for that $1.50 "fill up" of electricity.

I understand that the technology exists for information to be transmitted through the power lines, that could tell the power company who is pulling the power from the outlet and for what purpose. For example: If I plug in my Chevy Volt at work, the car could tell the Power Company that I should be billed for this electricity and I am using it in a car.

You will still be reducing your fossil fuel footprint, but your real world savings is going to go away!

GM Offers Buyback

Man, that NHTSA thing is a pretty smelly crock of E36 M3. In the land of overblown ridiculously unlikely situations, i think a Volt fire caused by the high-voltage pack actually hurting anyone 7 days after the car was totaled (you know where the pack is, right? If it gets that far, it's totaled) are ASTRONOMICALLY low. A lot lower than the chance was of dying in a speeding Lexus ES350, and THAT was a pretty damn small chance!

I think an impound lot or a body shop is more likely to suffer damage from that than any owners, and even then it only makes sense if GM's techs are somehow prevented from coming out to drain the battery after being automatically notified by onstar that your backseat passenger just died because they were in between the outside world and the battery pack that was damaged because you were in a very severe accident that by definition would prevent you from using or being in the car when it doesn't catch on fire 170 hours later.

Once enough folks are taking advantage of $1.50 "tanks" of electricity for their commutes rather than $50 tanks of gas, the taxes generated for road repair etc. by the sales of gas are going to have to be replaced.

Not unless someone assassinates Grover Norquist between now and then. To be realistic. I'm watching the inexorable demise of the state roads fund in Texas as we speak (it's been happening for most of my life). Grover's got em by the balls. Heads will roll if that tax moves an inch.

I get to drive a Volt all next week to and from work. Commute is less than 15 miles eaach way so hope to do the week gas free