I'm getting a good laugh from the big talkers here judging what other people are buying (and making BIG assumptions about why) based purely on their own personal use case, with zero consideration shown for how many other use cases are out there.
I'm getting a good laugh from the big talkers here judging what other people are buying (and making BIG assumptions about why) based purely on their own personal use case, with zero consideration shown for how many other use cases are out there.
In reply to Driven5 :
Yep, many use cases. The most common is hauling a bed full of air.
The stable has my first new to me vehicle($15.5) ..1991 C1500 ext cab short bed 350/5spd .....which currently needs attention....in the mean time I've acquired($5K) a 2003 C2500 Dmax LB7/ZF 6spd ext cab long bed......which hauled Curtis's73 '66poncho to challenge 2020.....but it too has issues that have been addressed($6800) at the end of last year....neither are leaving the 'yard'
In reply to Tom1200 :
If You have a truck its almost every vehicle in one package. Unless you need to carry more than 5 people. Nothing on the road is as capable as the modern pickup truck. And now they're getting over 20mpg or EV's. No one needs 99% of the vehicles they have but we have them, including you.
Anyway, how often do we have to bitch about trucks their cost and who needs them? I say we mind our business and stop pocket and driveway watching. But that's just me.
yupididit said:In reply to Tom1200 :
If You have a truck its almost every vehicle in one package. Unless you need to carry more than 5 people. Nothing on the road is as capable as the modern pickup truck. And now they're getting over 20mpg or EV's. No one needs 99% of the vehicles they have but we have them, including you.
Anyway, how often do we have to bitch about trucks their cost and who needs them? I say we mind our business and stop pocket and driveway watching. But that's just me.
Preach on. This forum can get very judgmental about how other people spend their money.
I got very lucky - when the time came that I really needed to replace my old truck (or take it off the road for a very long list of rust repairs), it was May 2020. Peak Covid. Dealerships had plenty of vehicles, no buyers, and no real answer as to when buyers would return. My local dealer had I think 5 new 2019 Silverado work trucks on the lot - so they were already way late on getting 2019s out of inventory, then Covid hit.
I rolled up and boy were they happy to sell me one of them. I did spring for one with the power window / lock / cruise pkg, but otherwise it's as work truck as you get - std cab, white, 8' bed, 2wd, 4.3L V6. Out the door for under $22k. Wish I'd bought all 5!
Hard to complain about it as a vehicle - I see about 22.5 mpg, comfy, quiet, cold AC, etc, and it gets used to haul stuff all the time.
But I also can't comprehend going bigger - I had to rent a pickup just before I got this one, and the size of the 3500 Ram crew cab long bed they gave me was bonkers.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:yupididit said:In reply to Tom1200 :
If You have a truck its almost every vehicle in one package. Unless you need to carry more than 5 people. Nothing on the road is as capable as the modern pickup truck. And now they're getting over 20mpg or EV's. No one needs 99% of the vehicles they have but we have them, including you.
Anyway, how often do we have to bitch about trucks their cost and who needs them? I say we mind our business and stop pocket and driveway watching. But that's just me.
Preach on. This forum can get very judgmental about how other people spend their money.
I get why people buy a truck but I don't get why an average middle class person spends that much becuase I'm a notoriously cheap bastard.
Not meaning to be judgemental at all.......unless you're putting pineapple on pizza or eating a chain Italian restaurants.......it's considered morally wrong at our house.
I was mostly curious if trucks costing as much a Porsche was a new thing becuase I don't buy new cars/trucks.
Patrick said:buzzboy said:Patrick said:ram 3500 4x4 tradesman crew cab short bed.
2016 msrp: $56,500, advertised and paid $44,500
2023 msrp: $76,825, advertised at $72,545
you went apples and oranges here though. MSRP to asking price, vs the discounts dealers were offering in the before times. $44,500 in 2016 is $56,570 today
Purely looking at MSRP it's gone up $4000 in 7 years then. Is the 2023 $4000 better than the 2016? That is the question.
jharry3 said:81cpcamaro said:gixxeropa said:In reply to Tom1200 :
Why buy a cheap car when you can get an expensive one with 300 month financing at 9.59% ?
Just the other day they are already advertising 84 month financing. Unfortunately the high new prices have people with used trucks thinking they are worth way more than they are.
The fact that they have to offer 7 year financing is a pretty clear indiction that prices are out of whack with income. It used to be 4 years of financing was a lot. Government mandates drove up the price of vehicles and higher taxes drove down the available resources to pay the note. Have ya'll prices cars lately? Seems like $40,000 is the new normal.
Or, is it because banks offer 7 year notes that manufacturers know they can jack up prices? I've always wondered how much credit (in all forms) impacts prices. How much harder would it be to sell a $70k truck when you could only get a 3 year note? Do high prices drive long notes or do long notes drive high prices?
Regarding truck prices, I've been looking and was just as shocked as the OP about current costs. Until I dug back at what I'd done 9 years ago.
I bought a 2014 single cab Sierra back in Sept of '14. Because SWMBO worked at GM at the time and it was a 2014 model right as the 2015's were rolling out, I got a good deal on it. However the sticker price was $31k. The only options were the 5.3l, trailer kit and cruise package.
A 2023 single cab can't be bought with a V8 anymore, but the equivalent is $39k now. I agree it's a jump, but not as bad as I originally thought.
Plus, the dealer incentives and cash back programs just don't exist right now. Pre-Covid, Ford, GM and Dodge always had some type of discount going. Dealers had to clear out stock before new models came in, so they were cutting prices to move them.
Today, that inventory isn't there, so they don't need to discount to move. So, could it be the prices just seem much higher because we're not seeing this discounts like before?
-Rob
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:yupididit said:In reply to Tom1200 :
If You have a truck its almost every vehicle in one package. Unless you need to carry more than 5 people. Nothing on the road is as capable as the modern pickup truck. And now they're getting over 20mpg or EV's. No one needs 99% of the vehicles they have but we have them, including you.
Anyway, how often do we have to bitch about trucks their cost and who needs them? I say we mind our business and stop pocket and driveway watching. But that's just me.
Preach on. This forum can get very judgmental about how other people spend their money.
Seeing as how other people's bad financial decisions are being made to be everyone's burden, I'll watch like a hawk.
This may be a "get off my lawn" type rambling but..
What was the OLD financial "rule of thumb" for how much house or vehicle you can afford. Talking amounts as a multiplier (house) or percent... of take home pay?
In reply to rob_lewis :
The discounts are coming back. Since you mentioned GMCs, I took a look at their website, and there's decent offers available right now. Both in cash and in financing on the Sierra 1500.
Piggybacking on the "not getting involved with how other people spend their money" thing...
A lot of people say "you don't need a truck". And to be fair, a lot of people don't. But they are damn useful if you have one! My dad, for example, has had a truck for as long as I've been alive. Right now, he's got a 2008 Tundra 4x4 that he bought new. He actually wanted a Tacoma, but when he saw that a Tundra SR5 with the 5.7L V8 was about $2k more than a 4x4 V6 Taco, he didn't think twice. It has been a good truck, and it gets used as a truck all the time. His town doesn't have trash pickup, so he has to haul all the trash to the dump every weekend. It was in an accident recently, so he's been having to use their Infiniti Q60 Coupe for dump duty. It's either that or his C6 convertible. Not ideal.
I do "Truck Stuff" with mine at least once a week, so I can justify owning one. YMMV, obviously. Does everyone need a Ram 3500 Dually Cummins? No, but trucks are nice to have and I can't knock a lot of people who DD one. It's the pricing I can't stand, not the people who spend the money.
In reply to Puddy46 :
Not only that but if you are willing to get up and walk out a few times at the dealership, the dealers are Hungry to move inventory. A lot of trucks they've had on their floor plan too long and they just need to sell them.
Neogotiate hard enough and you can get 20% off.
rob_lewis said:jharry3 said:81cpcamaro said:gixxeropa said:In reply to Tom1200 :
Why buy a cheap car when you can get an expensive one with 300 month financing at 9.59% ?
Just the other day they are already advertising 84 month financing. Unfortunately the high new prices have people with used trucks thinking they are worth way more than they are.
The fact that they have to offer 7 year financing is a pretty clear indiction that prices are out of whack with income. It used to be 4 years of financing was a lot. Government mandates drove up the price of vehicles and higher taxes drove down the available resources to pay the note. Have ya'll prices cars lately? Seems like $40,000 is the new normal.
Or, is it because banks offer 7 year notes that manufacturers know they can jack up prices? I've always wondered how much credit (in all forms) impacts prices. How much harder would it be to sell a $70k truck when you could only get a 3 year note? Do high prices drive long notes or do long notes drive high prices?
Regarding truck prices, I've been looking and was just as shocked as the OP about current costs. Until I dug back at what I'd done 9 years ago.
I bought a 2014 single cab Sierra back in Sept of '14. Because SWMBO worked at GM at the time and it was a 2014 model right as the 2015's were rolling out, I got a good deal on it. However the sticker price was $31k. The only options were the 5.3l, trailer kit and cruise package.
A 2023 single cab can't be bought with a V8 anymore, but the equivalent is $39k now. I agree it's a jump, but not as bad as I originally thought.
Plus, the dealer incentives and cash back programs just don't exist right now. Pre-Covid, Ford, GM and Dodge always had some type of discount going. Dealers had to clear out stock before new models came in, so they were cutting prices to move them.
Today, that inventory isn't there, so they don't need to discount to move. So, could it be the prices just seem much higher because we're not seeing this discounts like before?-Rob
Sorry Rob, you haven't been watching the latest trends. Bargaining is back. Inventory is old and costing dealers too much to keep. If it's over 90 days old they've already lost some potential profit.
Last numbers I saw was 141 days worth of inventory. ( that varies between brands).
In reply to rob_lewis :
They still list a V8 single door x 8' bed - you just can't get a short bed V8.
Seems like this thread has gotten a bit derailed into ranting about how people are stupid and pay too much for vehicles.
Going back to the original question of why the average new pickup price has risen faster than the average new car price, one needs to look at the vehicles being sold. 30 years ago a pickup was a much more bare-bones vehicle compared to a car, they didn't have the nice seats, the fancy stereo, the insulation and other NVH-reducing features, etc. Pickups were primarily work vehicles, not something that people used for commuting to an office job, and so compared to a car you were spending a greater percentage of your money on running gear -- drivetrain, chassis, brakes, etc and less on interior niceties and luxury features.
Fast forward to today and pickups are much more commonly used as replacements for cars. My 2021 F-250 is a thousand times more comfortable to drive than my '07 or '02 Chevies were, and even those were far more luxurious than a '93 3/4 ton vehicle. So today's pickups still have the expensive pickup drivetrain and chassis, but now they ALSO have the same luxuries as a car. So it makes sense that the overall price has increased more than it has for the car.
Puddy46 said:In reply to buzzboy :
Oof.
That really drives home what buying power there is today.
You have to consider the entire economy.
I stand corrected. Apologies for making false assumptions. I will admit that the few times I've looked at new cars around here, most dealers seem to have lots of vehicles "in transit" as opposed to actually on the lot trying to move. I extrapolated (incorrectly) that to most vehicles still selling at MSRP.
Regarding the GMC price, I tried to stay close to what I had. Although the new one is only available with the 2.7L, it's specs of 310hp/420tq vs. the 2014 5.3L's 355hp/383tq were close enough for me to for a like for like comparison.
Trucks are still expensive, though.
-Rob
I read an interesting article about "trimflation" on The Autopian this morning that seems relevant. I can't speak to his methodology, but his hypothesis is that one of the drivers of higher MSRPs is that manufacturers aren't building as many of the cheaper trim levels compared to the number of the more expensive trims. In his analysis, he looks at pickup truck listings.
It does kind of suck that they advertise that the MSRP starts at $X but then they only make a handful of those stripper models and everything else starts at $texas, but if you can only make a certain number of widgets total and you'll sell every one of the more expensive widgets that you make, why would you bother to make any of the cheap widgets? If people stopped buying crew cab, short bed, 4x4 trucks with leather interiors and every option on them, I'm pretty sure there would suddenly be a whole mess of work-trim trucks hitting the lots.
So this is what I've taken in from this thread thus far:
1. Trucks are indeed a new status symbol, so people are willing to pay more.
2. As trucks became replacements for cars people want more luxury in a truck and that costs more.
3. Financing is readily available and people are will to spend more because of it and so the increase in truck prices doesn't faze them.
4. Trucks weren't always this expensive but they've gone upmarket now and there is no turning back.
Datsun310Guy said:In reply to rob_lewis :
They still list a V8 single door x 8' bed - you just can't get a short bed V8.
The front end of that GMC is just damned ugly. Of course that is just my opinion. The only thing worse is new Ford Super Duty. I have nightmares about one of those things tailgating my Miata on 635.
If they ever re-make the Steven Spielberg Movie, Duel or the Stephen King Movie Maximum Overdrive, they need to use one of these pickups as the evil entity chasing the guy in the car. Those things just look evil.
racerfink said:Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:yupididit said:In reply to Tom1200 :
If You have a truck its almost every vehicle in one package. Unless you need to carry more than 5 people. Nothing on the road is as capable as the modern pickup truck. And now they're getting over 20mpg or EV's. No one needs 99% of the vehicles they have but we have them, including you.
Anyway, how often do we have to bitch about trucks their cost and who needs them? I say we mind our business and stop pocket and driveway watching. But that's just me.
Preach on. This forum can get very judgmental about how other people spend their money.
Seeing as how other people's bad financial decisions are being made to be everyone's burden, I'll watch like a hawk.
You really can't do anything about other people making bad financial decisions. I have been guilty of that myself as have most people.
On the other hand, you might not want to invest in the banks loaning out the money to all these people. History has a way of repeating itself.
Fool me once...
Tom1200 said:2. As trucks replacement for cars people want more luxury in a truck and that costs more
My 2016 Silverado is close to a '55 Chevrolet sedan - I realized that when I saw the '55 black Chevrolet flip upside down in American Graffiti. I'm 6'4" and hit my dead getting on/out of normal sedans.
On the other hand, you might not want to invest in the banks loaning out the money to all these people. History has a way of repeating itself.
Fool me once...
This is what I find so interesting. It wasn't that long ago that only the most credit-worthy people were eligible for a 5 year car loan. Now lenders are lining up to offer 7 and 8 year loans to just about anyone who wants one. You could speculate that cars last longer and depreciate slower than they did in the past, but it still seems crazy to me and I think it has a direct impact on retail pricing of cars, and how people percieve "need" vs. "want". People are often irrational and stupid and make bad financial decisions all the time. But in this case something has to have changed structurally with the profit/risk paradigm for lenders. I haven't financed a car since I was in my 20's but just about everyone I know has a note on theirs and they don't seem to think twice about it. I have to think that the vast majority of new cars that are sold are financed, would love to see some actual statistics around it.
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