Headlights: HID vs Halogen Projector vs Freeform

As I get older and my eyes get worse (esp at night), I want better lighting performance out of my headlights.

My 96 Contour has those classic 90's squished-parabola refractive-lens jobbies, so headlights are notoriously weak.

Anyway, I was thinking that my next car should have HIDs because, let's face it, might as well go with the "best." However, when it comes down to really choosing a car, there are more things to consider than just the headlights.

My conundrum: Subaru doesn't seem to give a hoot about HID. If I want HID, I either spend a lot more on BMW, Audi, or Mercedes, or I bail on having driven rear wheels. Instead, Subie uses projector-beam halogens.

Now, the free-form reflector halogens I've driven behind are simply excellent. The FF halogen lights on our '06 Sienna are the best I've ever owned.

So, what's the advantage of halogen projector beams? Is HID really that much better? Where do these two rank with FF, in comparison? Or is it all dependent upon individual designs?

I can't say that I'm a big fan of most HID designs. I find the sharp cut-off distracting. For instance, you can see the legs of the person on the sidewalk, but no head. I prefer the slightly less brilliant, but more gradual lighting of a halogen bulb.

that's just me though

that is not just HID.. that is the general light pattern out of any projector style light. The sharp cutoff is a function of allowing more light on the road without blinding oncoming traffic.

FF I have only dealt with on fog lights.. hella makes some of the best.

Subaru does offer HIDs on certain models. I retrofitted Hella 90mm projectors into my Trans Am with a Hella Gen III set of bulbs/ballasts and I can actually see the road now. The stock lighting on the T/A was horrible.

I've also put a plug n' play set in my Fit which is way better than the stock halogens, it has one hot spot and thats it.

Free forms with HIDs are dangerously bright and prolly best suited for off-road use lol.

Subaru has HIDs in some of their cars..are you looking at a particular model? Our Saabaru has (factory) HIDs and we really like them, they were the same ones used in the STi when we bought the car ('05). I think you're confusing projector housings and HID bulbs. HID bulbs can be used with any type of housing as long as the reflector is designed specifically for that bulb (read: not a retrofit for a halogen housing like so many suckers do).

Joe, the sharp cut off has nothing to do with bulb style, as mad machine said. I've got some Hella ECE rectangulars in my Fiero that use an H4 and they have a very sharp cutoff. The cutoff is a function of the reflector, not the bulb type.

Bryce

http://www.hidplanet.com/forums/ has tons and tons of information on modding various projector lenses (and headlights in general). You have to register to view the forum (ugh) but people there have WAY too much time on their hands.

Yes and all that time on their hands leads to some good info and people to do your work for you lol. I had one of those damn French Cannucks build me a couple of wiring harnesses for the T/A because that is one area I am not so skilled in. Did it for cheap too $40 and some American Bacon.

Interesting.......I've never experienced the super sharp cutoff I'd associated with HID's in any other type of headlight.

That's because nearly all projectors I've ever seen are also HID.

For what it's worth, NASIOC has numerous threads on retrofitting HID projectors into modified Subaru housings. TSX units seem popular as providing a donor with high-quality optical performance.

In my Integra, I modified some high-beam bulbs to fit in the low beam sockets. Gives a few more watts of performance without the big price bump of the fancy light styles: Link to some pix.

However, I'm completely in love with the HIDs on my IS 300, and if I drove the Integra more often I wouldn't hesitate to do an HID kit in the car. HIDs really are phenomenal.

For the record the HIDs on the Lancer Evo X have a killer high-beam setting, it's like a perfect cone of illumination.

I replaced my cherokee's headlight with sylvania silverstars, which are "the whiter and brighter halogens". I was impressed with the difference over the stock until I bought my audi with HID. Now when I drive my jeep I keep pulling on the light switch hoping it will come out farther and the lights will get brighter.

I retrofitted euro projectors and hids into my bimmer.. no needs for the "driving lights" anymore...

I need to do something about the saab.. badly

RossD wrote: I replaced my cherokee's headlight with sylvania silverstars, which are "the whiter and brighter halogens". I was impressed with the difference over the stock until I bought my audi with HID. Now when I drive my jeep I keep pulling on the light switch hoping it will come out farther and the lights will get brighter.

The Silverstars, are, putting it bluntly, over-marketed POSes.

Sylvania DOES make a good bulb, the Euro-spec OSRAM ones.

Here's a thread from NASIOC that'll be of great help: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=954736

Nashco wrote: Subaru has HIDs in some of their cars..are you looking at a particular model? Our Saabaru has (factory) HIDs and we really like them, they were the same ones used in the STi when we bought the car ('05). I think you're confusing projector housings and HID bulbs. HID bulbs can be used with any type of housing as long as the reflector is designed specifically for that bulb (read: not a retrofit for a halogen housing like so many suckers do). Joe, the sharp cut off has nothing to do with bulb style, as mad machine said. I've got some Hella ECE rectangulars in my Fiero that use an H4 and they have a very sharp cutoff. The cutoff is a function of the reflector, not the bulb type. Bryce

I'm looking at 09 WRX's or any current gen Legacy GT (or Spec B) and they all have projector-halogens. Not HID. I haven't looked at other Subies.

I can easily believe that part of the Saabicizing would include HIDs.

rogerbvonceg wrote: I can easily believe that part of the Saabicizing would include HIDs.

Like I said, it's the same hardware that was offered in the Impreza for the same year. It was also optional...$$$. If you want to play, you've got to pay!

Perhaps you didn't realize or had sticker shock, but the current STI comes with HIDs. I thought it might have just been sticker shock, but the Legacy Spec B costs the same amount as the STI so I'm guessing you just didn't know.

Bryce

Nashco wrote:

rogerbvonceg wrote: I can easily believe that part of the Saabicizing would include HIDs.

Like I said, it's the same hardware that was offered in the Impreza for the same year. It was also optional...$$$. If you want to play, you've got to pay! Perhaps you didn't realize or had sticker shock, but the current STI comes with HIDs. I thought it might have just been sticker shock, but the Legacy Spec B costs the same amount as the STI so I'm guessing you just didn't know. Bryce

Well, you're right, but I'm not wanting to get into that kind of money for the STI, and I'm trying to strike a balance, here. I just looked it up and, yes, the current STI is standard with HID but HID is not even an available option on the 09 WRX. As for the Legacy, HID is not offered in any trim level. Otherwise I love that car.

In contrast, I can get a Mazda 3 with HID without going up to their flagship Mazdaspeed version, but even if I did I wouldn't have to spend 35 large to do it. (But I would have to give up AWD.)

You can put HID publs (with all the wiring) into the LEgacy GT projectors, but they will not be quite as good as actual HID projectors, slightly different cutoff. THe regular ones are really quite good, I have an 06 GT and it is one of the best non-HID lights out there. IF you are really serious there are some guys over on Legacygt.com that are retrofitting other projectors into the stock housings. Popular ones are the TSX as mentioned before, as well as lexus RX and S2000 ones. But you can get a plug in kit (basically) for under 200 bucks that will go into the stock housing if you don't want to cut up the current lights.

rogerbvonceg wrote:

Nashco wrote:

rogerbvonceg wrote: I can easily believe that part of the Saabicizing would include HIDs.

Like I said, it's the same hardware that was offered in the Impreza for the same year. It was also optional...$$$. If you want to play, you've got to pay! Perhaps you didn't realize or had sticker shock, but the current STI comes with HIDs. I thought it might have just been sticker shock, but the Legacy Spec B costs the same amount as the STI so I'm guessing you just didn't know. Bryce

Well, you're right, but I'm not wanting to get into that kind of money for the STI, and I'm trying to strike a balance, here. I just looked it up and, yes, the current STI is standard with HID but HID is not even an available option on the 09 WRX. As for the Legacy, HID is not offered in any trim level. Otherwise I love that car. In contrast, I can get a Mazda 3 with HID without going up to their flagship Mazdaspeed version, but even if I did I wouldn't have to spend 35 large to do it. (But I would have to give up AWD.)

Well, another option if you really wanted an Impreza with HIDs but didn't want the STI upcharge is to retrofit the STI HIDs into the lower trim level Impreza. I'm guessing all of the hardware is interchangeable, you would just need to do some minor wiring changes. I'm guessing it would still cost you several hundred dollars if you found a wrecked STI, but if you really wanted HIDs the factory ones are the way to go IMO, best bang for your buck. As I mentioned, HIDs on my Saabaru were a very expensive option (several hundred dollars) so you have to pay to play. Also, keep in mind that light quality and light type don't go hand in hand. If lighting is important to you, do a night time test drive between the vehicles you're really considering, ideally on the same night (same weather, same location, etc.)....there are some very good halogen systems out there that might surprise you when compared to HIDs. Also, keep in mind that many cars with HIDs are really only HID low beams, the high beam is still halogen.

I have a very good friend that chooses his vehicles based on the lights rather than the powertrain, chassis, looks, etc. You people make me sick!

Bryce

The big news is HID retrofitting are the FX35's projectors: bi-xeon, so you get HID low AND high beams.

mad_machine wrote: I retrofitted euro projectors and hids into my bimmer.. no needs for the "driving lights" anymore... I need to do something about the saab.. badly

Euro lenses and a set of good bulbs will make a world of difference in that car. Yes the stock US stuff sucks bad.

Nashco wrote: I have a very good friend that chooses his vehicles based on the lights rather than the powertrain, chassis, looks, etc. You people make me sick! Bryce

Har! I don't think I'd choose a car based on lights, but it is a consideration. There are plenty of cars with HID that don't even warrant a second look from me.

If HID is so good, why would Subaru not even make it an option on the WRX? I can see it being standard on the STI, and an available option with any WRX trim level. Yes, it's expensive, but maybe I'd give up a moonroof and heated seats to get it.

InigoMontoya wrote: THe regular ones are really quite good, I have an 06 GT and it is one of the best non-HID lights out there. ...if you don't want to cut up the current lights.

Thanks, that is good feedback. I am very happy with the FF reflector lights on our 06 Sienna. Far, far superior to my Contour's lights, which isn't saying much.

Do you find the cutoff distracting or not? Early projectors had a too-sharp cutoff, but I think there have been steps recently to soften that line a bit.

And no, I don't want to buy a car knowing I'll "have" to make mods to it. I'm kind of looking for plug-n-play on my next one.

rogerbvonceg wrote: If HID is so good, why would Subaru not even make it an option on the WRX? I can see it being standard on the STI, and an available option with any WRX trim level. Yes, it's expensive, but maybe I'd give up a moonroof and heated seats to get it.

HID is an option on the WRX...the WRX STI. The STI is just another trim level. I'd say you can't get STI on a lower trim level Impreza for the same reason you can't get a manual transmission on the lower trim level for tons of cars in the US (you have to get the GXP, SRT, AMG, etc.)...supply and demand. Very few people are going to get a lower level Impreza to save money BUT ALSO be willing to spend an extra $900 for HIDs. If they offer the options individually similar to how MINI does, then the cars get very expensive due to build complexity. That's part of the reason why you can get an STI for about the same price as a similarly equipped John Cooper Works MINI...even though the STI is more spacious, has 50% more power, and is AWD instead of FWD.

I know you're looking new, but have you considered used? If you really want a lower trim level Subaru with HIDs from the factory but don't want a new STI, they were available on '05-'06 Saab 9-2X (wolf in sheep's clothing) and you can get those for a small fraction of the price of a new (base level) Impreza. Of course, they were also available with the STI, again depreciated a heck of a lot but not as cheap as the Saabaru. We love our Saabaru...solid chassis and powertrain of the Impreza WRX without the boy racer looks. Tack on options like the STI lights, steering rack, and suspension parts to the more sleek Euro styling and it's a hard combo to beat in the used car market for value. Ours is an '05 with the 2.0 turbo, if you get an '06 9-2X Aero they came with the 2.5 turbo (same as the WRX).

Bryce

Nashco wrote:

rogerbvonceg wrote: If HID is so good, why would Subaru not even make it an option on the WRX? I can see it being standard on the STI, and an available option with any WRX trim level. Yes, it's expensive, but maybe I'd give up a moonroof and heated seats to get it.

HID is an option on the WRX...the WRX STI. The STI is just another trim level. I'd say you can't get STI on a lower trim level Impreza for the same reason you can't get a manual transmission on the lower trim level for tons of cars in the US (you have to get the GXP, SRT, AMG, etc.)...supply and demand. Very few people are going to get a lower level Impreza to save money BUT ALSO be willing to spend an extra $900 for HIDs. If they offer the options individually similar to how MINI does, then the cars get very expensive due to build complexity. That's part of the reason why you can get an STI for about the same price as a similarly equipped John Cooper Works MINI...even though the STI is more spacious, has 50% more power, and is AWD instead of FWD. I know you're looking new, but have you considered used? If you really want a lower trim level Subaru with HIDs from the factory but don't want a new STI, they were available on '05-'06 Saab 9-2X (wolf in sheep's clothing) and you can get those for a small fraction of the price of a new (base level) Impreza. Of course, they were also available with the STI, again depreciated a heck of a lot but not as cheap as the Saabaru. We love our Saabaru...solid chassis and powertrain of the Impreza WRX without the boy racer looks. Tack on options like the STI lights, steering rack, and suspension parts to the more sleek Euro styling and it's a hard combo to beat in the used car market for value. Ours is an '05 with the 2.0 turbo, if you get an '06 9-2X Aero they came with the 2.5 turbo (same as the WRX). Bryce

Damn, now you had to do it, didn't ya? You know I'll be looking at E-bay and AutoTrader, now, dontcha?

Actually, I am looking at used. A used '09 WRX in 2012 (when my other car pays off). I like the interior dimensions of the new "Rex." I also like the Legacy GT. I also like the Spec B, but as you allude to, I wish I could get the Spec B mechanicals without the navi, but I can't.

I'm also looking at other cars, but I really meant for this to be a discussion of general lighting approaches instead of another "what car" thread. I'm a ways off from serious shopping, yet.

Alright, so I took Bryce's challenge and did a little research on the 9-2X Aero.

Yes, HID is an available option, and if I were to find one so equipped, I could expect to pay an additional $275 or so for the privilege (according to Edmund's TMV calculations).

If I bought a used car without HID and attempted a retrofit, it seems to me that unless I lucked into a junkyard STI (sort of like using the lottery as a retirement fund), I could expect to pay significantly more money (~$1,000 or so) to obtain the STI HID equipment, or around half that (plus significant time) to obtain other parts and modify the stock system. My "not worth it" meter is in the red on this one.

Given two example cars similarly equipped, an 06 9-2X Aero with all the goodies or an 06 Legacy GT Limited, the values are about the same but I prefer the LGT in every way but the headlights. So, my money's on the LGT, but it "sure would be nice" if it had been offered with HID as an option.

What I'm gathering, though, is that HID is not taking off with manufacturers or consumers as a necessary feature because

1. Headlight design has advanced significantly in the last decade or so, to the point that a) standard halogens produce more light and b) light housings project more of the available light down the road, reducing the apparent advantage of HID,

2. Gas discharge light sources, while very, very good, also require significant tradeoffs in cost, packaging, and weight.

So, in answer to my OP, sounds like I shouldn't weight HID all that heavily, given a modern headlight system.