I just received some wheels I purchased from GRM advertiser, Apex Race Parts, for my S2000 (their new forged setup for the S2K).
With the wheels, I received some recommended suspension adjustments for proper fitment from Apex. "Typically requires a minimum of -3 degrees of camber front and rear. Offset upper balljoints are recommended."
At the moment the cars suspension is completely stock. Researching some aftermarket parts for the S2000 nets all different kinds of offset upper ball joints with camber adjustments (typically within the -1.5 degree range), offset camber joints, recommendations for camber kits and bump steer kits, etc.
I do plan on running Bilstein PSS or PSS9s (B14 or B16) on this car.
Just looking to learn something new, what I should look for in parts to accomplish this function, and any recommendations.
What are you doing with the car? Race car? Track toy? Dd? Some combination?
-3* camber is a bit much for a street car. It's a good number for a race car that doesn't get street driven though.
It would be helpful to understand the context behind that sort of recommendation
It's going to be a combo of garage queen, track car/autoxer, and Friday night cruiser. The bottom line is it's a toy that I'll want to do many things with. A DD is not one of them though.
That was my thought too on the amount of camber. After some more research, the S2000 can achieve that via the factory adjustments.
It's a 17x10 ET48 wheel. Long story short, I didn't pay attention during the group buy to the width selection I made. They showed up and to my surprise, it's exactly what I ordered.
The wheel manufacturer recommends an alignment for fitment?
That does not sound perfornance oriented, more like a "get a sick looking wheel tuck" alignment.
Now, if a suspension manufacturer recommended an alignment, that I could understand.
The lower ball joint has the highest effect on roll center height. The upper ball joint has a larger affect on camber curve, although both changes have an effect on both geometries.
The problem with higher camber curves is the roll center gets awfully short, and short roll centers can move around a lot, which can feel really odd/unpredictable/non confidence inspiring unless you stiffen the suspension to where it doesn't move, at which point the suspension geometry doesn't mean much anyway.
Slippery said:
DirtyBird222 said:
https://robrobinette.com/S2000Alignment.htm
This answered a lot of my questions.
This was a very good read. Thanks for the link.
My take is lower it first and then see if you need them. I doubt you will based on the specs I saw on the Apex website, they are quite fender friendly.
I run specs much more aggressive than the Apex ones and never had a problem. Drove it all the way to California and back, Homestead speedway, plenty of autocrosses ... of course I wasn't trying to win any races.
Just spend the money on someone that really knows how to do a good alignment. If you bring it south Fl I can point you in the right direction.
Thanks dude! How far South in South Florida?
What all do you have done to your suspension? I literally have everything else mapped out for this car, except for that, and upon receiving these wheels and the manufacturer specs - I'm completely thrown off.
As I stated above, I was planning on going with the Bilstein kit, a front sway bar, and then hash out everything else from there. I enjoy how this thing handles as is, so I didn't want to go crazy.
Here's the rest of their recommendations:
- Typically requires a minimum of -3º camber front and rear. Offset upper balljoints are recommended.
- Fenders need to be rolled flat. Pulling the fenders will provide even more clearance, but is not always a necessity.
- Relocating the rear fender tabs is recommended.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
The wheel manufacturer recommends an alignment for fitment?
That does not sound perfornance oriented, more like a "get a sick looking wheel tuck" alignment.
Now, if a suspension manufacturer recommended an alignment, that I could understand.
The lower ball joint has the highest effect on roll center height. The upper ball joint has a larger affect on camber curve, although both changes have an effect on both geometries.
The problem with higher camber curves is the roll center gets awfully short, and short roll centers can move around a lot, which can feel really odd/unpredictable/non confidence inspiring unless you stiffen the suspension to where it doesn't move, at which point the suspension geometry doesn't mean much anyway.
That makes sense. So if I go with a 1inch drop from the spring/shock/strut combo I go with, would you recommend offset lower ball joints and an adjustable upper ball joint in order to correct that curve?
DirtyBird222 said:
Thanks dude! How far South in South Florida?
What all do you have done to your suspension? I literally have everything else mapped out for this car, except for that, and upon receiving these wheels and the manufacturer specs - I'm completely thrown off.
As I stated above, I was planning on going with the Bilstein kit, a front sway bar, and then hash out everything else from there. I enjoy how this thing handles as is, so I didn't want to go crazy.
Here's the rest of their recommendations:
- Typically requires a minimum of -3º camber front and rear. Offset upper balljoints are recommended.
- Fenders need to be rolled flat. Pulling the fenders will provide even more clearance, but is not always a necessity.
- Relocating the rear fender tabs is recommended.
Sorry, just saw this.
To get the car aligned down here, these are the only places I would go to, both are excellent and know these cars well:
Fradleys - Info
Apex Alignment - Info
My car is mostly stock nowadays, just supercharged and some engine mods. I went through a few different set-ups, had KW V3s and then Tein Monoflex with EDFC. I had a Saner front swaybar.
I can look up with alignment settings when I get home, but I recall it was max caster front and about 3 degree camber out back.
I ended making my own offset ball joints that met my scca autox class rules. I don't know if that matters to you. That ruleset allowed moving one of the ball joints horizontally anywhere you want but disallowed moving then vertically, so roll center adjustments were basically not allowed. Fortunately, on the s2k, the lower ball joint is a bolt on peice. I took a set of OEM ball joints and pressed the ball joint part out and then pressed them into some new 15-5 stainless mounts that I machined at work.
It's been a few years but iirc my front camber range is about 2.5-4* now.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
The wheel manufacturer recommends an alignment for fitment?
That does not sound perfornance oriented, more like a "get a sick looking wheel tuck" alignment.
That would be wholly incorrect in the case of Apex. There is a reason they offer wheels for select cars. They are highly tested for tire size, fit, BBK clearance, etc, before they release anything and they give suggestions for what you're trying to do.
Here is their S2000 fitment guide page.
https://support.apexraceparts.com/hc/en-us/articles/5787985048091-S2000-Wheel-Tire-Fitment-Guide
freetors said:
I ended making my own offset ball joints that met my scca autox class rules. I don't know if that matters to you. That ruleset allowed moving one of the ball joints horizontally anywhere you want but disallowed moving then vertically, so roll center adjustments were basically not allowed. Fortunately, on the s2k, the lower ball joint is a bolt on peice. I took a set of OEM ball joints and pressed the ball joint part out and then pressed them into some new 15-5 stainless mounts that I machined at work.
It's been a few years but iirc my front camber range is about 2.5-4* now.
Damn those are nice! I went with the Megan offset lower ball joint kit. I'm not building this car to a rulebook so don't have to worry. My Champcar Accord is the place where I go to read in between the lines and still get smoked by cars with outlandish claims of "stock hp" LOL.
Slippery - thanks for the info. I might just buy some alignment equipment myself and do it. Reading that guys page has given me more confidence in what I'm doing to the car and my plans. I bought some alignment equipment for the Champcar as well. Not as easy as throwing it up on a alignment rack but I also hate leaving home.
