Here piggy piggy (tow pig's)

HiTempguy wrote: I'm in love with my 2001 dmax. Wish I could have bought one sooner, but the $4500 price tag was my kind of deal!

I like my 2002 2500HD Duramax a lot, except that it needs injectors. :-/

I recently got back from a 2200 mile round trip tow San Jose -> Grand Junction -> Las Vegas -> San Jose. No complaints about the towing behaviour, although it did blow the shaft seal on the water pump as I crossed the state line into CO. Fortunately I was only 20-30 miles out, so I managed to top up the coolant, limp it to the Chevy dealer in Grand Junction, and transfer most of my stuff to the Miata. That wasn't a cheap repair, but when you show up with a blown water pump and a trailer a thousand miles from home, you're not exactly in a strong bargaining position...

Oh, as for the size of tow vehicle thing, this was an F-350 that someone else was using to tow to the event...

That's a long trailer.

I'd bet the trailer is a bit more than 5,000 lbs. Add in a pair of Miatas and you're around 10,000 lbs.

The truck should pull at least 12,000 but that's a lot on a bumper pull trailer.

I bet it started to wag the truck and it got away from him.

I would bet the rear car was heavier than the front, big mistake

aussiesmg wrote: I would bet the rear car was heavier than the front, big mistake

Yep, load error, driver error or equipment failure. That should have been a pretty stable load.

I think if I were pulling that long a trailer and that much weight regularly I would want a dually. I know they are a bitch for some to drive when not towing but that is a long trailer. Also of note, does that truck have a lift installed. Can't really tell on my small screen but I hear a lift kit can have a negative effect on towing dynamics.

Oh and back to the original poster, I hear good things about the GM 8.1 trucks, just not much after market and they like the gas.

I don't necessarily agree you have to have a huge truck. You just need to drive what you have safely. Sometimes that means slowing down.

I've towed a 8K pound 20' enclosed trailer behind a 1/2 ton van, with no problems, for thousands of miles. I've towed 4X8 trailers full of seasoned oak fire wood behind a Corolla, for thousands of miles, with no problems. You have to adjust your driving for the rig.

With the enclosed trailer behind the van, I stayed off the interstates, ran 55-60 and never had a problem. It was stable, stopped well, and drove well. The same trailer behind my F350 was good to 75-80 mph. Neither one was a white knuckle drive because I didn't push the equipment beyond what it was capable of doing. I've pulled loads where the maximum safe speed was 35 mph. We moved that load early on a Sunday morning, to avoid traffic, and took our time. No white knuckles were involved.

If you want to run the interstate at 80 mph with 10K pounds, you need the equipment to do that job and that's going to take a pretty hefty truck.

A big truck isn't a magic wand though. See the above picture. You still have to load properly, understand the limits of the equipment and adjust your driving style to suit.

A lot of good information, opinions , and first hand experience has been posted in this thread, thank you.

As for the 1/2 Vs. 3/4 trucks I have used a number of them over the years and the 3/4 (all manufacturer) always felt more composed when loaded and deep into a turn. I am not saying you need a 1 ton to move a thee axle trailer and boat but a Ram 150 with a slant six "might" work

I use to have a 1990 Ram 2500 12 valve diesel the truck towed great and I never felt like I needed more, sold it back when everything went in the E36 M3er. With that said the main three things keeping me out of these trucks is the buy in cost, non-maintenance item ($$$...), and will I ever need that much truck. Over the years I have repaired (tech level) a few of these truck have been cheap to fix but most of them have knocked my socks off with parts prices and related labor, anyone ever priced an injection pump? Depending on the make and model you could be looking at $600-$1500 not including labor (save for DI engine) as most of these pumps require special tools to time them to the engine.

Since the 8.1 Chevrolet burban got a lot of love in this thread what years did they put them in and any one I should avoid?

What about using ford heavy SUV's for towing? I almost never see one towing more than a small camper, is there a reason for this?

One think I should say is I am not a truck guy I view truck's/ tow pig like a tool, if it's not working I need another one.

Thanks, Paul

The big Ford SUV is a beast. For gas, you got the 5.4 or the V10. For diesel, you got the 7.3 or 6.0 PSD, depending on year. It's basically a 250 chassis and tows well. The 5.4 is probably a little small for what you want to do with it. That's what my van had. It'll move it but not fast.

The only 7.3 Excursion I have any experience with, is a 2000 that belongs to a good friend. It has been a nightmare of injector, valve cover gaskets, injector pump, HPOP, and ECU replacements. It does tow well, but he's about $6k into repairs over the last 100K miles. Must have been built on a Friday afternoon.

The BB Suburban would be at the top of my list if I ever replace my BB Ford truck. I don't know if I would even consider a Excursion. Around here they don't seem to age well.

Lots, and I mean lots, of Ford vans out there with the 7.3, particularly with boxes of some sort on the back, available for keep the motor and scrap the rest prices. Old ambulances, box trucks, and shuttle buses around here hit about $2k at the mile point where a same year pickup would be $5-8k. Either add a cab back on the van front and a bed or swap the motor into something else and seems like a guy could have a great truck for heavy towing without a lot of cash. If I knew anything about diesels I'd probably have done it myself.

curtis73 wrote: but the proper tow vehicle for a 9k billboard is a 3/4 ton.

No, the proper tow vehicle is whatever a manufacturer recommends. I have never been disappointed or surprised towing within manufacturer ratings and have never felt "unsafe".

"Trust me", I have towed all over North America for race teams and been in most types of setups. Using a 3/4 ton to tow the same weight as a 1/2 ton, if within their rated capacities, is especially silly as you are simply adding an extra 1000lbs of unnecessary weight to the tow vehicle. The whole "it will last longer" thing is also bologna. If I had a 1/2 ton and a 3/4 ton used strictly for towing and did perfect maintenance on them, both would get to 750+k kms with very little in replacement parts.

But I digress. To the OP, I've towed with the 8.1, older 454/7.4 (hotted up with the 5 speed manual in a dually crew cab), and I still find them quite lacking overall. And then there is the terrible gas mileage to consider.

HiTempguy wrote:

curtis73 wrote: but the proper tow vehicle for a 9k billboard is a 3/4 ton.

No, the proper tow vehicle is whatever a manufacturer recommends.

I must preface this by saying that I respect your opinion and your knowledge, but you just lost a lot of credibility right here. The manufacturer ratings are bean-counters' way of covering corporate butt and marketing. Period.

Example: 96 Caprice with the tow package. Rated to tow 4800 lbs. The tow package got you an oil cooler and 2.73 gears instead of 2.43. 96 Impala SS came standard with higher rate springs, stiffer valved shocks, a bigger oil cooler, two transmission coolers, and 3.08 gears. It was rated for 3000 lbs.

Another example: the last couple years of GMT400 3/4 ton trucks. Most were rated in the 9000-10,000 lb towing range. After a few years, customer feedback about ride harshness led GM to spec D-range tires instead of E, but the tow rating stayed the same.

A third example: My friend's 01 Land Rover Disco. It is rated for 6800 lbs towing with a wet noodle air suspension, short wheelbase, and inadequate brakes. What did he do? Went and bought an ultralight 6900-gvw travel trailer that was 31' long and took it into the rockies for a vacation.

The manufacturer also can't compensate for driver experience and ability, whether they live in the mountains of WV or the 70-mph winds of the flat Nevada desert where its legal to tow doubles. They can't know if you're towing a 5er, a flatbed, a gooseneck, or a travel trailer. They can't anticipate the distance from the tongue to the axles. They can't anticipate if you will replace tires with the right size and load rating or if you buy $200 Michelins or $100 generics. They can't anticipate that you'll replace shocks with $29 econo-bounce brand or Bilstein. Will the customer buy $30 Dura-squeal brake pads, or good ones?

Manufacturer tow ratings have NOTHING to do with how much they can safely tow. They have to do with how much money they will have to shell out in warranty repairs and lawsuits. Manufacturers put a weight number on it. If you think that any trailer under that weight is safe, you are grossly mistaken.

But, like I said, I mean no offense. I just couldn't possibly disagree more with your statement.

Donebrokeit wrote: Since the 8.1 Chevrolet burban got a lot of love in this thread what years did they put them in and any one I should avoid?

The 8.1L was in 2001-06 Suburban 2500s. Not many changes during that time so any year would be good.

Late to this thread but my question is this: Our local autocross club has depended for several years on its members to tow the club trailer to events. It's a 20' enclosed trailer and weighs around 8,500 lbs. Now we're thinking of getting a club truck dedicated to the cause for longer tow jobs and being more comfortable handling the weight than most 1/2 ton rigs that we've used.

The drawbacks become the problem of such little use (12 events a year, might only see 500-1000 miles annually) is not known to be good for trucks, depreciation over the life of vehicle, insurance costs, etc.

My initial thought is that a 8.1 Suburban purchased for 7-9 thousand should give good service for the next 7-9 years so we're looking at a grand a year give or take in depreciation. I definitely think gas will be preferable to diesel given the very limited use.

Any other advice/suggestions/ideas? We need it to be dead reliable and the budget all in is 20K but less is always nice if reliability can be maintained. Creature comforts....unimportant.

Toyman01 wrote: The big Ford SUV is a beast. For gas, you got the 5.4 or the V10. For diesel, you got the 7.3 or 6.0 PSD, depending on year. It's basically a 250 chassis and tows well. The 5.4 is probably a little small for what you want to do with it. That's what my van had. It'll move it but not fast. The only 7.3 Excursion I have any experience with, is a 2000 that belongs to a good friend. It has been a nightmare of injector, valve cover gaskets, injector pump, HPOP, and ECU replacements. It does tow well, but he's about $6k into repairs over the last 100K miles. Must have been built on a Friday afternoon. The BB Suburban would be at the top of my list if I ever replace my BB Ford truck. I don't know if I would even consider a Excursion. Around here they don't seem to age well.

Here's the problem with Excursions. People think they are made of gold. I took a quick look at the Excursion market, and if you want a 7.3 in decent (not great) shape, be prepared to fork over $15k-plus. I don't care how good the engine is, the rest of the truck is still a 15-year-old Ford. Even the V10 models can fetch over $10k. And if you're buying it for towing, you aren't buying the 5.4. I mean, they were great SUVs for their day, but a modern Expedition is rated to tow almost as much and is a much nicer truck overall.

IOW, if you need to tow a heavy load and haul a bunch of people, get a 3/4 ton Suburban or full-size van. Excursions just aren't worth the money.

curtis73 wrote: But, like I said, I mean no offense. I just couldn't possibly disagree more with your statement.

When a billion dollar company rests its liability on the tow rating, I disagree with your opinion. I understand where you are coming from, but neither of us are engineers who designed these systems, even if we are individuals who use the systems a lot. I also do not think it is fair to use tow standards as example from the 90's, but from duhmestic companies I've found them to be "fairly" accurate.

Nowadays there is an engineering standard the companies conform to. So again, yes, I do trust the people who put billions into the vehicles design and don't want to get sued into the ground.

Tom_Spangler wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: The big Ford SUV is a beast. For gas, you got the 5.4 or the V10. For diesel, you got the 7.3 or 6.0 PSD, depending on year. It's basically a 250 chassis and tows well. The 5.4 is probably a little small for what you want to do with it. That's what my van had. It'll move it but not fast. The only 7.3 Excursion I have any experience with, is a 2000 that belongs to a good friend. It has been a nightmare of injector, valve cover gaskets, injector pump, HPOP, and ECU replacements. It does tow well, but he's about $6k into repairs over the last 100K miles. Must have been built on a Friday afternoon. The BB Suburban would be at the top of my list if I ever replace my BB Ford truck. I don't know if I would even consider a Excursion. Around here they don't seem to age well.

Here's the problem with Excursions. People think they are made of gold. I took a quick look at the Excursion market, and if you want a 7.3 in decent (not great) shape, be prepared to fork over $15k-plus. I don't care how good the engine is, the rest of the truck is still a 15-year-old Ford. Even the V10 models can fetch over $10k. And if you're buying it for towing, you aren't buying the 5.4. I mean, they were great SUVs for their day, but a modern Expedition is rated to tow almost as much and is a much nicer truck overall. IOW, if you need to tow a heavy load and haul a bunch of people, get a 3/4 ton Suburban or full-size van. Excursions just aren't worth the money.

Where are you looking? Around me in SF Bay, I regularly see gas Excursions for $5k and up and diesel starting around $10k. I'll be listing my Ex soon for around $11k.

curtis73 wrote: Manufacturer tow ratings have NOTHING to do with how much they can safely tow.

But they do govern how much you can LEGALLY tow for those who care about laws and such.

HiTempguy wrote:

curtis73 wrote: But, like I said, I mean no offense. I just couldn't possibly disagree more with your statement.

When a billion dollar company rests its liability on the tow rating, I disagree with your opinion. I understand where you are coming from, but neither of us are engineers who designed these systems, even if we are individuals who use the systems a lot. I also do not think it is fair to use tow standards as example from the 90's, but from duhmestic companies I've found them to be "fairly" accurate. Nowadays there is an engineering standard the companies conform to. So again, yes, I do trust the people who put billions into the vehicles design and don't want to get sued into the ground.

Case in point, here in the colonies, the Jeep Wrangler Unlimited can only tow about 3500lbs max, same vehicle in Europe can tow over 7000lbs, why?? Same with cars, a lot of smaller vehicles have tow ratings in Europe, here they are actually forbidden by the manufacturer, why??

amg_rx7 wrote: Where are you looking? Around me in SF Bay, I regularly see gas Excursions for $5k and up and diesel starting around $10k. I'll be listing my Ex soon for around $11k.

Oh, I've looked at SF Bay Craigslist many times with envy. At one point, I considered going into the Miata arbitrage business with a bay area resident on another forum because they are so much cheaper there than they are here (SE Michigan). A lot of cars seem to be. Anyhow, a few examples:

7.3, 165k miles, $18.5k: http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/cto/5164558697.html
6.0, 193k miles, $15k: http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/cto/5156426020.html
6.0, 121k miles, $15650: http://detroit.craigslist.org/okl/cto/5128724480.html
6.0, 250k miles, $16k: http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/cto/5162138106.html
6.0, 131k miles, $19k: http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/ctd/5128077785.html
V10, 200k miles, $10: http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/cto/5143041366.html

There are cheaper ones, but they tend to be rougher. And no matter which way you slice it, they are still old trucks with well over 100k on them. Not worth that kind of money to me, but evidently that's what the market says they are worth.

Fobroader wrote:

HiTempguy wrote:

curtis73 wrote: But, like I said, I mean no offense. I just couldn't possibly disagree more with your statement.

When a billion dollar company rests its liability on the tow rating, I disagree with your opinion. I understand where you are coming from, but neither of us are engineers who designed these systems, even if we are individuals who use the systems a lot. I also do not think it is fair to use tow standards as example from the 90's, but from duhmestic companies I've found them to be "fairly" accurate. Nowadays there is an engineering standard the companies conform to. So again, yes, I do trust the people who put billions into the vehicles design and don't want to get sued into the ground.

Case in point, here in the colonies, the Jeep Wrangler Unlimited can only tow about 3500lbs max, same vehicle in Europe can tow over 7000lbs, why?? Same with cars, a lot of smaller vehicles have tow ratings in Europe, here they are actually forbidden by the manufacturer, why??

The duty cycle is different. Euro Duty cycle is shorter drives and lower speeds. We are longer drives and higher (avereage) speeds).

In reply to curtis73:

The interesting point of your hauling measure of tow capacity and the manuf. tow rating- they are generally the responsibility of the same person/group. So if you don't trust the tow rating, how is it that you trust the hauling rating? And vise-versa.

And generally speaking, you are correct about the safety part- that's rarely the limiting factor in tow rating. Cooling is. Which is why there's a different duty cycle between the US and Europe, as FbC pointed out.

I like the Excursion ad that advertises "bullet proof 6.0 powerstroke" hahahahahah

codrus wrote: I like my 2002 2500HD Duramax a lot, except that it needs injectors. :-/

My dmax smoked a bit only at hot idle when I first got it (a bit of white-ish blue smoke, guaranteed it needed at least one injector).

My plan is to use a tech2 to individually kill injectors until I find the one that is leaking, then completely replace the one bank of injectors + their hard lines (the old hardlines corrode and the corroded material destroys the new injectors extra quick). Costs about $1600cdn per side, which is pricey, but I'll keep driving the truck this way until mpg goes to crap or the truck won't start in the winter. I figure I can stretch out the $3500cdn over the course of 3-4 years which is pretty damn good. I'll probably have a new truck by then and just sell it for what its worth

My 2002 Dmax 3500 needed injectors when I purchased it. I replaced them all and the hard lines. It's enough of a pain in the ass that I really didn't want to bother with it again for a long time. I did use dash command with the extended GM PIDs to see which ones were weak, but in the end wanted the piece of mind of all fresh replacements.

Cotton wrote: My 2002 Dmax 3500 needed injectors when I purchased it. I replaced them all and the hard lines. It's enough of a pain in the ass that I really didn't want to bother with it again for a long time. I did use dash command with the extended GM PIDs to see which ones were weak, but in the end wanted the piece of mind of all fresh replacements.

So did you DIY it, or pay someone?

Looking at the write-ups I've seen online it doesn't look that hard, but a bunch of people I've talked to say "it's a diesel, you don't want to mess with it", but then they don't specify why.