Hey Ford Guys - FE352 vs 351w questions.

Hey Folks,

I have a '65 Galaxie with a original stock 352 and stock auto trans. I'm in the beginning research stages for engine upgrades and really don't have much experience with engines or starting from this point with a car, the others I was always able to add off the shelf bolt ons to.

No real set plans for the car at the moment other than a fast reliable driver.

I'm thinking I would like the engine to produce about 500-600hp or so. This is kind of a rough number choice based on driving my smaller cars that were 300hp and my truck that's just over 300hp.

I would like to keep the build budget lower so that's what led me to thinking 351w as the FE parts are more expensive.

Initial thoughts are to build the engine with an aftermarket TBI and electronic ignition with possibly adding boost somewhere down the line.

Thanks.

352 goes in the same hole as a 428.  600 horsepower out of a 428 is a monstrous build, using antique parts that are expensive.  351 W has more stuff available, and 600 horsepower would be slightly more realistic, but still not a budget build, and long term reliability would be suspect. 

Now, a 428 with 500 foot pounds of torque, and 350 horsepower is probably a pretty do-able thing, and would create a pretty darn spanky street car that would last for quite a long time.

If you just want numbers, install a blown Coyote or LS.

The FE engine is definitely a more expensive place to start, especially a 352.  By the time you bore it out and swap the parts to maximize the cubic inches in the block you've spent a truck load of money.  If you've got cheap access to a running 351M or 400, I'd go that route. 

Of course, a Galaxie with a 428 FE and twin turbos is pretty damn cool...

EDIT: I have to second Streetwise. If you're looking for drivability and big numbers I'd be looking for one of the Coyote-on-a-pallet deals from one of the wreckers. 

A 600hp naturally-aspirated 351W build is not going to be a particularly cheap build, nor would it be the most pleasant on the street. You'd likely want at least a 408ci stroker kit for it, and then you are going to need good heads (around 210-225cc) and a fairly rowdy solid cam and a single-plane intake. It might also require an aftermarket block, I can't recall how strong 351W blocks are (302 blocks hinge up the middle at the 450hp range) That would also be an engine that would be  weak down low, and a Galaxie is a big heavy car, so then you are going to need tall gears (3.90s or 4.11s at least) for it not to be a total dog, as well as higher-stall converter if you go automatic. 

Lowering your horsepower goals to the 450-500hp range, a 390 FE can make that amount, although it might take a stroker crank to get there, as well as aluminum heads and intake. The 390 is also one of the most common FE engines, so they are easier to find than a 428. And a 450-500hp FE will make more low-end torque, which will be much more suited to a heavier Galaxie.

Although not a facotry-equipped engine, it might not hurt to rule out the 460, if you are up for making mounts. Big cubic inches stock (and factory blocks can easily go to 521 cubic inches, and some as big as 572), they made them for a long time, so they are pretty plentiful, and they make bulldozer torque. Again, it'll take pistons (most have basement-level compression), heads, intake and camshaft, and some fabrication work.

Also, consider your transmission type and cost.  The stock trans is probably an FMX.  Not sure what they can handle for torque but being 55 years old it could probably use some love just to get it back to stock capability.  Same goes for the 9" rear end.  These can handle that HP level with the right components (axles, gear ratio, etc) but will probably need a re-build of even the stock components based on age.   600HP gets you what torque and at what RPM?  Consider gear ratio and vehicle weight when selecting all the supporting characters for this build.   

FWIW, I'm also a vintage Ford fan and owner.  1969 Mercury Cougar, fuel injected 351C, 9", manual trans, with upgraded suspension and brakes...and cooling system...an interior...and wheels and tires...it never ends it sees sometimes.

All that said above, I'd avoid the 352.  If you want the vintage cool factor, stick with an FE.  Windsor can be built up to similar cubic inches but with a smaller footprint.  Though they were available in my Cougar, I can't imagine working on one within my size engine bay.  You probably have much more room in the Galaxie engine bay.

Check out Norma66-Brent's build thread here where he is doing a lot of what you mention in your post.  He's using a 390 FE in his build.  His car is sweet!

wawazat said:

Also, consider your transmission type and cost.  The stock trans is probably an FMX. 

FMX didn't come out until 1966, so it's likely the earlier Cruise-O-Matic  FX. Kind of an odd transmission without a whole lot of upgrade parts out there. So OP needs to factor in a swap to a tranmission that will hold it, whether that be a T56 or a C6 or a 4L80E.

A 10 carb log manifold and 10 individual pipes (I don’t know how that works) on a small block Ford should wake it right up.  Just ask Gramps.

Former multiple FE owner here. The FE is an antique, big and heavy with crappy oiling of the bottom end from the factory. Parts are going to be very expensive. Remember this thing was designed back in the days of the Edsel so it isn't exactly cutting edge.

The small block would be way easier and more affordable. You can mail order a Blueprint Engine 351W from Summit for not much money with aluminum heads and all the goodies already run in on a dyno.

If I were looking for torque over HP I'd just drop a 460 in there since gas mileage means nothing to you.

The HP figures you quote are high...and pretty unnecessary on a street car. You can do plenty of burnouts with 400HP and not spend near as much.

There was an ooooold issue of Hot Rod Mag (circa 2001/2002, that era where turbos were really starting to get attention) where they had a guy with a '58 Mercury wagon that he dropped a twin turbo 460 in that he built almost entirely out of junk parts. Stock short block, mid-70s huge chamber heads, Saab intercoolers, Thunderbird Turbo Coupe turbos blowing through a carburetor. It had a mild cam and intake on it. Only made 350hp, but it made over 700ft-lbs of torque. That's be a fun recipe for this as well.

I have a 425rwhp small block in my 70 duster. Factoring in drivetrain losses, were knocking on the door of 500 at the crank.

Its ill tempered, gutless down low, and requires a lot of attention. Fine for a track car or drag car, crappy for a cruiser.

The galaxy will probably tip the scales at about 3500-3800 lbs without luggage or driver. Similar to a new mustang v6. That makes 300hp at the crank. Go test drive one. Theyre fun, but not earth shattering. What they lack is torque.

In a heavier car, especially a street car cruiser, torque is what makes it fun. Its rare you get to bang 7k on the street for long, unless its geared so stiff that youre screaming at 60mph in 4th. 

My reccomendation, based on a LOT of builds for myself and customers, is to build something for torque, ease of maintenance, and economy.

Im not a ford guy. Ive played with some old 5.0 and 302 fords, a triple carb y block, a flathead, and an aluminium headed 460 in a 1 ton 4x4 on 38 inch boggers. 

That 460 would move the earth. And idle at 500rpm. Never bog, instant throttle response, never needed anything but oil changes according to the owner. It was a "towing cam", ebay heads, headers, and an ebay dual plane when it came in. We put an old school torquer manifold and an msd atomic efi kig on it here, and fixed all the wiring. I cant help but to imaging that engine in a 4 speed galaxy with 3.23 gears. It would be an incredible cruiser, and even better with a nascar inspired theme and chassis work.

460 makes a lot of sense. And they kept putting them in the trucks into the 90s, so it shouldn't be hard to find one.

Thanks for all the info.

Looks like what I was thinking was off kilter with real expectations.

I was basing my original "wish list" numbers off of my current 2006 Sierra 1500 with the L33 310hp/335tq and towing package gears .

After a bit of looking it seems the original 352 engine spec was 250hp/352tq, not the 300hp or slightly more than I was thinking it was. So now knowing this, I think 400hp is more realistic for this project.

A little looking around I see Edlebrock has their RPM top end kit that's rated 418/434 on a 390. I haven't come across specs yet for this kit on a 352 bottom end, but am now wonder if this would be fine.

As far as the transmission, it seems most guys go with the C6. I would prefer the 4spd AOD, but seems like that may be out of the budget/skill set.

db said:

After a bit of looking it seems the original 352 engine spec was 250hp/352tq, not the 300hp or slightly more than I was thinking it was. So now knowing this, I think 400hp is more realistic for this project.

A little looking around I see Edlebrock has their RPM top end kit that's rated 418/434 on a 390. I haven't come across specs yet for this kit on a 352 bottom end, but am now wonder if this would be fine.

 

The 352 really got the rug pulled out from under it after 1960 with the introduction of the 390. In 1960 there was a 360hp version with an aluminum intake, Holley carb, solid cam and 10.6:1 compression. After that year the compression went down to 9.3:1 for the 4-barrel versions 8.4:1 for the 2-barrel versions. There aren't any high-compression pistons available for the 352, but you can bore them 0.050" over to 390 bore size which improves your options for pistons, although I think they still end up down in the hole.

Norma66-Brent is building a 1966 Galaxie with a 446ci stroker FE engine:  https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/norma-1966-galaxie/132261/page1/  He may be able to give you more information on cost and HP.

db said:

Thanks for all the info.

Looks like what I was thinking was off kilter with real expectations.

I was basing my original "wish list" numbers off of my current 2006 Sierra 1500 with the L33 310hp/335tq and towing package gears .

After a bit of looking it seems the original 352 engine spec was 250hp/352tq, not the 300hp or slightly more than I was thinking it was. So now knowing this, I think 400hp is more realistic for this project.

It's worse than you think.  That 250Hp is gross, where your Sierra is a net rating  you are closer to 200 Net than you think, especially since the engine is unlikely to be in perfect tune.

428.  428.  428.  428.

If some is good, more is better.

600 hp out of a 351 would be pretty optimistic just like 600 hp out of a normally aspirated 350 is aswell. Even for a race engine this would be pretty difficult as most race engines in that hp range will be in the 355 to 360 range. If you bore the 351 out etc it might be possible. Plus you will need high compression ratio and run on race gas or methonal unless you run fuel injection.

Just put a For Sale sign on your Galaxie. Every 352 turns into a 390 on sale day.

In reply to Cooter :

So you're saying that GM ratings are "at the wheels"? I guess I never realized manufactures did that. So yeah, that does make it worse.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

It is if I'm using someone elses' check book.

Another vote for 460.  I don’t know about now, but they used to be dirt cheap too.

ddavidv said:

Just put a For Sale sign on your Galaxie. Every 352 turns into a 390 on sale day.

Must be the same magic that turns every SBC into a 4 bolt main! 

db said:

In reply to Cooter :

So you're saying that GM ratings are "at the wheels"? I guess I never realized manufactures did that. So yeah, that does make it worse.

No, there was a shift in how they rated power back in 1971. Before that it was "Gross Horsepower", which was at the flywheel but with no external engine accessories, no air cleaner, no exhaust and optimal ignition timing, amongst a few other things. Around 1971-1972, manufacturers primarily shifted to "Net Horsepower" which is a more real world rating. Air cleaner, full exhaust, all engine accessories present and operational. So Gross Horsepower ratings tend to be very optimistic, Net Horsepower is much more realistic.

logdog said:

ddavidv said:

Just put a For Sale sign on your Galaxie. Every 352 turns into a 390 on sale day.

Must be the same magic that turns every SBC into a 4 bolt main! 

Just pulled from a Vette!