HKS Fcon? ("piggyback" content)

Alright, so i've got a line in on a sweet deal for a COMPLETE with all frills old school HKS Fcon setup. (MX6)

This would include:

HKS Fcon computer
F2T-specific chip (next to impossible to find, which is why i'm considering it)
HKS FCD
2.5bar map sensor
HKS GCCD (injector trim controller)
460cc RX7 injectors
90-92 patch PNP harness

I was planning on going Megasquirt after the Challenge.

The Fcon was the first and only tuning option specifically for the F2T for a LOOOOONNNGGGG time, and from what i understand, it works well, if a bit rudimentary.

My current "tuning" setup:

Hacked VAF
ZombieSS 440 chipped ECU
AFPR

Anyone used one of these units? Is it worth pursuing over my current hot mess? Let's assume that there would be little to not budget hit after i sold the ZombieSS setup.

I know the Fcon was real popular on a lot of cars "back in the day" so i figured i'd ask here.

I might be completely wrong but I have this vague recollection that the software to program the FCON is only available to authorised HKS dealers/tuners.

BoxheadTim wrote: I might be completely wrong but I have this vague recollection that the software to program the FCON is only available to authorised HKS dealers/tuners.

That's the FCON V-Pro i think.

Buttttt... even on that, you can quite easily find said software on Ebay.

Here's links to what i'm talking about. (The original FCon)

FCon:
http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=748&rsku=4044

FCD:
http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=683&rsku=4279

GCC:
http://www.hksusa.com/products/?id=688

Bumpage?

Keith, you ever used one of these back in the day on the Miatas? Any rotor-heads?

I think the key here is "back in the day" and "rudimentary"

Not being a rotary guy... I don't know ALL that is available... but aftermarket management has come a LOOOOONG way in just the past 5 years.....

oldeskewltoy wrote: I think the key here is "back in the day" and "rudimentary" Not being a rotary guy... I don't know ALL that is available... but aftermarket management has come a LOOOOONG way in just the past 5 years.....

Agreed, and the price shows it.

I guess i should say what about this appeals to me, that mainly being that it seems ridiculously easy to tune. (I'm not tuning-smart) I mentioned the rotor-heads because i know they were popular with them awhile back. I'm not running a magical spinning motor.

The only thing holding me back is that i'm not sure that it would make more power on the setup i'd be running than my current "solution." But, it has been proven to support up to 370whp if i go further than i'm expecting with this car.

The only thing that i'm really unhappy with my current situation is, is that i don't really have much control over the timing advance, and the advance on my chip varies between "High," and "unknown." I'm a little leary of trying to make big power without knowing exactly what's going on. From a fueling only perspective, my current ecu is just fine and should support over 300whp without breaking a sweat. I just can't change the timing.

What about Megasquirt?

More expensive, won't fit in challenge budget, and i don't trust it on a DD (with me tuning it) just yet. I'm talking about the DIY PNP, i don't even pretend to have the knowledge necessary to truly build my own, even though it'd be cheaper.

It may be a reality down the road for this car, but that time is not now.

Is there no one you know of local to you that would help build a 'Squirt? Or shop for a used one?

If you don't trust your ability to tune, what are you doing with a piggyback system?

I'm confident in being able to tune this setup, it seems extremely simple. (the GCC is a good example.) I probably won't even have to tweak the timing at all initially, i'd just like to be able to down the road. Fuel tuning on this system, i'm completely comfy in doing myself. I've got a wideband, and it's not tuned via confusing tables on a laptop screen.

Nobody here will do Megasquirt, that system has an extremely bad rep within the local community. There are a few people 2 hours south of me that could probably do it, but then we run into budget again. Time = money, and a busy tuner's time = lots of money.

Basically, i can sell my current ECU/VAF for enough money to cover the expense of the PFC. I can't sell it for enough money to cover a Megasquirt and get it up and running with my level of knowledge.

This would all be so easy if i could use an SAFC on the car, but i can't.

pres589 wrote: If you don't trust your ability to tune, what are you doing with a piggyback system?

Your comparing what is essentially something akin to writing actual software/building electronics from scratch versus something that plugs in and tells you what you are doing?

Seriously, give the dude a break, there is NOTHING similiar to a piggyback compared to a standalone besides what they accomplish.

That was a little harsh, but what i was trying to say.

Got more info, this sounds like exactly what i need.

seller said: You cannot alter the timing, its uses stock mazda programed timing, the fcon chip have 9 fuel program setting in it , the dial is from 0 -9 , 0 being the stock setting and 9 being the max fuel, so basically if you need more fuel, you just turn the dial one or more clicks, how friendly is fcon, its the easiest driver friendiest ecu in the market. the gcc allow you to fine tune the car to perfection, so basically you can make the car idle better than stock ecu and get 30+mpg by tuning, I havent seen a car i cannot fully tune on fcon in 1 hour, whether its stock turbo or big turbo running 6-26psi. the fcon uses all factories sensor and ecu, and you can check the code still and pass emission even with my 460cc injectors. Thats the great thing about fcon. pretty mych plug and play with nothing to splice ir cut, just disconnect ecu harness, plug to fcon harness back to completely stock ecu with no chipped ecu, fcon uses stock ecu and stock unmodified vaf.

how is the fcon different from the greddy piggy back units? because I see the greddy units all the time on honda tech and other sites for cheap, then again what I call cheap an dyou call cheap are 2 different things. How much is the seller asking for the setup your looking at?

digdug18 wrote: how is the fcon different from the greddy piggy back units? because I see the greddy units all the time on honda tech and other sites for cheap, then again what I call cheap an dyou call cheap are 2 different things. How much is the seller asking for the setup your looking at?

I'm not sure if the Fcon would be available for hondas... you can still use one, but it won't be real effective without HKS's chip for your motor.

I'm still working out final price for this setup, but it'll be a bit less than $500.

I can't use the Greddy units, they don't play nice with my VAF.

The Fcon is older than most of the Greddy units, and is more analog than digital as well. Check out the links i posted earlier and read up!

Junk.

State of the art in 19dickety6.

Old junk, but if it's functional at all and can be had for cheap, it'll work just fine. I had one in my rally GTX and it never gave me any hassle at all.

93gsxturbo wrote: Junk. State of the art in 19dickety6.

Interesting statement in light of the fact that i really don't have any better options for this car.

I think their is a lot of missing info here on the f-con. Junk? Far from it, if you understand what and how it works. Maybe you have a sour taste in your mouth from using it on a dsm (going off your name gsx) since the ecu was most of the problem just as there was problems uing the vpc on the dsm's as well. The pfc f-con is by far one of the greatest piggybacks for its day and now becauses its simple. They used a 3d fuel map, the safc only uses a liner line. The f-con v is just a newer style of this adding more thing that you could have added back in the day with add ons. For example the egc,ipm,aic,gcc and im sure one or two more things that im forgetting.

One big problems is most dont know what the chip is set for, hks did not burn a chip for a stock car their is no point and anyone who says its for a stock motor has no idea what the chip is set for, but the f2t chips was set up for Prototype's Motor Sports in NY. It was added after it have quite a few mods so HKS dyno tuned them a chip they were the first to use the fcon in a f2t back in early 90. All i remember is it was set to a 12 a/r at full boost at 16 pis on a odd turbo most likely was a stock one with a tbird wheel and a honed housing. Like the turbonetics stage one turbo for the f2t back in the day befor the tkt's turbo were big. I do know it was set up for stock injectors cuz they used an aic to controll 2 extra injectors and put down 237 whp.

Here is were the problems with lies with most they dont know what the chip was tuned for, how big of injectors? Stock exhaust? Stock airbox or cone filter? All of this comes into play with the chips everything related to fuel its accounted for. You really have to know what the chip is setup for to get the most from it. One of the nice thing as you said 92celicaHalfTrac is it doesn't touch timing but you can do that with the aid of a egc to advance or retard if up to 15 degress if you need it by boost pressure and rpm.

Your best bet would be to find some one to dyno tune you a chip, yes i know its gonna be hard first you need to find a shop that still dose eproms and knows how hks is setup, its the same thing as the newer f-cons but they just get flashed now nothing has changed really same E36 M3 different box. There was a few places in the midwest that did custom chips for the f2t as well i know a few were floating up in MI.

Just for fun here is the fcon paperwork

http://www.alltrac.net/manuals/HKSFCON.html

I do hope your able to find one for your mx6.

Just tossing it out but MS is one of the worst stand alones to use, its only big because of the price alot of guy i know that have used it have sold it and went with SDS. I have no reason to go with a stand alone since my fcon is perfect for what it needs to do.

Wow, thanks for bumping, Ziggy.

Funny you bumped it, though.... I have a PFC w/ F2T chip and FCD en route. I can still get the PNP harness brand new through several suppliers, will be ordering that tomorrow.

Then i'll start trolling for a GCC and IPM on ebay. There's a couple on there right now.

As for F2T chip tuning, the only people that i know of that successfully did so (at least those that were forum-active) were ZombieSS/Zombiestang, AdamTurbo, and JayB. Probinator sells/sold pretty much copied chips.

ZombieSS seems to have had the most success, but i have heard of some other people working off the scene in my research.

I have one of VERY few ZombieSS 440cc chips, and a JayB chip currently.

But you're right.... it's going to be hard to find someone that can still read and modify the hex code properly on a stone age dinosaur like this motor.

Funny you mention the TKT turbos, i sold a full turbo kit including a TKT 50trim w/ Stage 1 upgrade a couple months ago. But at least you said the original HKS chip was tuned for stock injectors, that gives me a good starting point. Do you know the significance of the different "Codes" on the chip? There's apparently a "D" chip and an "E" chip that i've found so far. I also hear rumors that HKS will still send me a chip for $80, but i have yet to contact them. Wonder if they'd have more information way back in the archives as to what this chip is exactly.

In case i didn't make it clear, i'm PSYCHED that i managed to track one down!

Ziggy, what do you drive?

Fawk we just run DSMlinks in our cars. Nothing like standalone capabilities with the reliability and daily-driver-friendliness of the stock ECU. And cheap too!

There have been a handful of KA24-Ts running a DSMlink because it works so well. I would imagine you could do the same thing on your Mazda.

www.dsmlink.com

The new harness will not come with the pressure harness. Just an fyi.

I didnt mean get the f2t chip tuned but get a new chip for the f-con burned from you specks.

JayB was a hack his were super chip copies, Adamturbo had a shop dyno tune his car and then bought the rights to the file and then sold them.

D box was the first run when the E came in they started droping cars. I have had a f-con in the mx6, rx-7, corolla, and supra. Loved it in every car. The reason the fcon is still around is because its very simple to use.

To bad your looking into the fcon now the guy to talk to about it was Chuck Ulinski but its still sad to say hes no longer with us. That man knew more about the mx6 then mazda did and he learned it all on his own. I got my first fcon chip from him code was 079. Ill see if i still have it, i had 3 different chips made. I have a few note books that i keep track of all mods (and part numbers) done to cars and note if it was worth it or not.

Get in touch with HKS Japan they would have the info on the chip.

Most people forget what happen in 74 that changed the aftermarket world.

Still after all this time I still have an 89 probe gt with no motor or drivetrain that is perfect sitting in the back of my shop that i still to this day wont sell. Don't know why just wont to much history with that car.

It has spring tech swaybars on it, yeah thats how long ive had this car. Spring tech also did the first lowering springs for the mx6/probe as well.

Right now its just the corolla with the fcon but one day i do plan to finish the probe which i still have my harness for.

93gsxturbo wrote: Fawk we just run DSMlinks in our cars. Nothing like standalone capabilities with the reliability and daily-driver-friendliness of the stock ECU. And cheap too! There have been a handful of KA24-Ts running a DSMlink because it works so well. I would imagine you could do the same thing on your Mazda. www.dsmlink.com

Probably could, or i could adapt to Crome. Both are way more work and budget than i can afford at the moment on a Challenge car.

The big hitch is the HUGE differences in motors, as well as our VAF running on a different volt range than pretty much anything else. All surmountable problems, but likely less ideal than many other options.

ZiggyRuff wrote: The new harness will not come with the pressure harness. Just an fyi. I didnt mean get the f2t chip tuned but get a new chip for the f-con burned from you specks. JayB was a hack his were super chip copies, Adamturbo had a shop dyno tune his car and then bought the rights to the file and then sold them. D box was the first run when the E came in they started droping cars. I have had a f-con in the mx6, rx-7, corolla, and supra. Loved it in every car. The reason the fcon is still around is because its very simple to use. To bad your looking into the fcon now the guy to talk to about it was Chuck Ulinski but its still sad to say hes no longer with us. That man knew more about the mx6 then mazda did and he learned it all on his own. I got my first fcon chip from him code was 079. Ill see if i still have it, i had 3 different chips made. I have a few note books that i keep track of all mods (and part numbers) done to cars and note if it was worth it or not. Get in touch with HKS Japan they would have the info on the chip. Most people forget what happen in 74 that changed the aftermarket world. Still after all this time I still have an 89 probe gt with no motor or drivetrain that is perfect sitting in the back of my shop that i still to this day wont sell. Don't know why just wont to much history with that car. It has spring tech swaybars on it, yeah thats how long ive had this car. Spring tech also did the first lowering springs for the mx6/probe as well. Right now its just the corolla with the fcon but one day i do plan to finish the probe which i still have my harness for.

It actually didn't come with the pressure sensor anyways, so i've got to get a new one, should come with harness, right? (Ordering an HKS 2.5bar pressure sensor today with the harness)

Any information you'd be willing to share about your chips would be greatly appreciated. I've listed a rundown of what's on the car in terms of engine modifications at the bottom of this post.

You're saying get in touch with HKS about the 079 chip? I need to figure out what i've got coming. It's an identical chip from a guy that made 370whp on his Fcon/460cc injector setup, so i hope it'll be good enough for me. I DO know someone with a D3 079 chip, though.

"power mods:"

CT26 turbo
440cc injectors
255lph hp pump
Aeromotive 13109 AFPR
Turbosmart UltraGate38 Wastegate
3" "bumper dumper" exhaust
Evo8 intercooler w/ 2.5" piping, Greddy RZ bov
ZombieSS 440 chipped ECU

When the Fcon is installed it'll be the above, but swapping in:

460cc injectors
CT26 60-1 garrett hybrid
Ported and polished head w/ B2200 dual valve springs and Delta Stage 3 cam
Ported and extrude honed intake manifold, shortened by 3cm.
(Possibly) 4.6 mod motor throttle body

But yes, i'd love to have any more info you'd be willing to give. I've been on a crusade of sorts to breathe new life into these cars and the community, and more information, especially on something like this would be a boon to the community.

Tino? Or is this Zombie himself?