Honda V6 Miata in the Aug 2014 issue

HondaTim wrote: In reply to B. Choate: The stock ECU's can't be reflashed and yes you need to remove the moblizer and there are olny a few years that can be used , it is a business for me I was the first one to make these run outside of the car, and have been working with the guys a mini tech, should be a fun kit.

Don't take this the wrong way, but with a sole source for the brains for this conversion, the project is going to have limited appeal.

I would not be comfortable investing in this swap knowing that you might not be around in a few years to support it for whatever reason. Even if Mini Tech has the keys to the kingdom, they might decide that it's no longer the flavour of the day and move to the next project.That could leave me with a paperweight in the garage.

From another angle, note that the LSx converters are in two camps. One uses the HP tuner stuff that is all over the place, and the other camp applies a MSD box and a carburetor to solve the running issues. Is the MSD+Carburetor still an option with the Honda engine or is the vavle-train a dealbreaker?

NOHOME wrote:

HondaTim wrote: In reply to B. Choate: The stock ECU's can't be reflashed and yes you need to remove the moblizer and there are olny a few years that can be used , it is a business for me I was the first one to make these run outside of the car, and have been working with the guys a mini tech, should be a fun kit.

Don't take this the wrong way, but with a sole source for the brains for this conversion, the project is going to have limited appeal. I would not be comfortable investing in this swap knowing that you might not be around in a few years to support it for whatever reason. Even if Mini Tech has the keys to the kingdom, they might decide that it's no longer the flavour of the day and move to the next project.That could leave me with a paperweight in the garage. From another angle, note that the LSx converters are in two camps. One uses the HP tuner stuff that is all over the place, and the other camp applies a MSD box and a carburetor to solve the running issues. Is the MSD+Carburetor still an option with the Honda engine or is the vavle-train a dealbreaker?

Although greatly appreciated, Tim is not the only source for J Series wiring and ECUs. There are Mini Tec kits running now on 2 different ECUs so far (AEM and stock ecu with the immobilizer removed). A little googling and you will find both DIY instructions and several companies offering services for removing immobilizers from Honda ECUs. There are at least 3 different wiring solutions being worked on that I know of (with 2 of the 3 running in Miatas so far). There are several companies like Tim's that have experience in this sort of work for the J series motor, with swaps common in sand rails and Honda Civics, S2000 swaps, and more.

Titus wrote:

NOHOME wrote:

HondaTim wrote: In reply to B. Choate: The stock ECU's can't be reflashed and yes you need to remove the moblizer and there are olny a few years that can be used , it is a business for me I was the first one to make these run outside of the car, and have been working with the guys a mini tech, should be a fun kit.

Don't take this the wrong way, but with a sole source for the brains for this conversion, the project is going to have limited appeal. I would not be comfortable investing in this swap knowing that you might not be around in a few years to support it for whatever reason. Even if Mini Tech has the keys to the kingdom, they might decide that it's no longer the flavour of the day and move to the next project.That could leave me with a paperweight in the garage. From another angle, note that the LSx converters are in two camps. One uses the HP tuner stuff that is all over the place, and the other camp applies a MSD box and a carburetor to solve the running issues. Is the MSD+Carburetor still an option with the Honda engine or is the vavle-train a dealbreaker?

Although greatly appreciated, Tim is not the only source for J Series wiring and ECUs. There are Mini Tec kits running now on 2 different ECUs so far (AEM and stock ecu with the immobilizer removed). A little googling and you will find both DIY instructions and several companies offering services for removing immobilizers from Honda ECUs. There are at least 3 different wiring solutions being worked on that I know of (with 2 of the 3 running in Miatas so far). There are several companies like Tim's that have experience in this sort of work for the J series motor, with swaps common in sand rails and Honda Civics, S2000 swaps, and more.

Thank you for chiming in with that information. I had done a bit of searching and it was not as obvious as I would have thought. That said, I do not frequent any Honda specific boards where this might be common knowledge.

As I have mentioned, my interest would be more in using the adapter plate to put a Honda V6 and Miata gearbox in an MGB. I tend to want to retire technical risk ahead of time and until now as a first time swapper of FI components looking up from the bottom of the learning curve, was not comfortable with what I could find out.

NOHOME wrote: Thank you for chiming in with that information. I had done a bit of searching and it was not as obvious as I would have thought. That said, I do not frequent any Honda specific boards where this might be common knowledge. As I have mentioned, my interest would be more in using the adapter plate to put a Honda V6 and Miata gearbox in an MGB. I tend to want to retire technical risk ahead of time and until now as a first time swapper of FI components looking up from the bottom of the learning curve, was not comfortable with what I could find out.

No problem. Off hand, I know both Tim www.arizonaperformanceimports.com and Don at RPM www.go-rpm.com would have no problem getting a J Series motor running in your MGB.

The only LSx guys using carbs are the ones who are scared of FI or are after a specific look. No reason to go that route!

Keith Tanner wrote: The only LSx guys using carbs are the ones who are scared of FI or are after a specific look. No reason to go that route!

You are right, but if it expands the market for the adapter bits, I would not ignore the Ludite segment of the market either.

The current gold standard for MGB conversions (based on numbers converted) might be the GM 60 degree V6. Done both as carb and FI.

Keith Tanner wrote:

Rupert wrote: I'm confused! Why would anyone want to put a V anything motor in a Miata? You already have a sweet DOHC inline motor that has a ton of potential. Why don't you use that as the basis of your hot build? It's not like there aren't tons of alternatives out there. Cubic inches are great if you're pulling a huge tractor or semi rig or even a boat. My twin 502s were very handy on my 45' boat. But they are much less an advantage when propelling a 2,300 lbs. car Other than a V-12, there is no sweeter sounding or driving V-motor that I know of than a typical inline motor, OK an inline three isn't sweat, but that's not what we are talking about here. That's certainly not typical. And you can actually access and work on your inline motor without an engine removal or other serious cure to obtain access! Please don't even insult your Miata with yet another sbc, sbf, or even Honda installation! From the factory, the Miata motor with all it's potential is already better than those!

I think maybe you might want to stay away from this thread. It's obviously not to your taste. You're making a lot of assumptions that aren't true about things like engine access. Check out the inherent balance of various engine configurations as well, you'll find out there's a reason that larger inline fours need balance shafts but a V6 and V8 never do.

Hogwash! I'm staying out of this market until somebody offers a Pontiac straight 8 swap.

NOHOME wrote:

Keith Tanner wrote: The only LSx guys using carbs are the ones who are scared of FI or are after a specific look. No reason to go that route!

You are right, but if it expands the market for the adapter bits, I would not ignore the Ludite segment of the market either. The current gold standard for MGB conversions (based on numbers converted) might be the GM 60 degree V6. Done both as carb and FI.

And boy, what a hunk of 'gold' the GM v6 + t5 is.

The j + miata box would be lightyears ahead in the 'feel' and sports car-ness department, not to mention 50-100% more power stock for stock.

But why doesn't megasquirt work? You have injectors, a manifold, and o2 sensors, and maybe some variable valve stuff. MS should be able to handle all of that no problem right?

Where is the oil sump on the j-series?

Yeah, the MG guys came up with something they liked and just kept doing it. There's a reason I never considered the GM V6 for my car. And a reason that most people won't go to the effort that I did to fit the LS1/T56.

There are some good pics on how the MiniTec oil pan works in this thread: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/1992-mazda-miata-v6-swap-build-thread/100193/page1/

Looks like the going price for a decent J engine around here is about $700 for a 100k mile engine. Not bad at all. I will be watching that build thread carefully

As far as N/A power goes, there is a build thread over on ClubRoadster, search for Beck's VVT build or something (not sure if I'm allowed to link to it). Anyways, he did cams, ITBs, header, pretty much everything you can do to an N/A engine, including HEAVY porting and polishing of the head, and he claims to be making 210 WHP (9k rpm redline).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz6ikUxr98g

Actually a great video. Anyways, if you want N/A power, its completely doable, but it will always run you big amounts of cash. A swap is far more cost effective, obviously.

The whole Miata trans thing is a pain though. Is there no way to somehow make one of the Honda transmissions work?

Keith Tanner wrote: There are some good pics on how the MiniTec oil pan works in this thread: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/1992-mazda-miata-v6-swap-build-thread/100193/page1/

That oil pan looks to be Massively front sump. Which is unfortunate because the MGB would prefer rear-sump. I guess you can always fabricate though.

I had high hopes that several of you would see it at them Mitty this past weekend and make additional comments.

Congrats to Flyin' Miata, Bill and Keith. You guys were well represented with some nice looking cars.

Desmond wrote: Looks like the going price for a decent J engine around here is about $700 for a 100k mile engine. Not bad at all. I will be watching that build thread carefully As far as N/A power goes, there is a build thread over on ClubRoadster, search for Beck's VVT build or something (not sure if I'm allowed to link to it). Anyways, he did cams, ITBs, header, pretty much everything you can do to an N/A engine, including HEAVY porting and polishing of the head, and he claims to be making 210 WHP (9k rpm redline). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz6ikUxr98g Actually a great video. Anyways, if you want N/A power, its completely doable, but it will always run you big amounts of cash. A swap is far more cost effective, obviously. The whole Miata trans thing is a pain though. Is there no way to somehow make one of the Honda transmissions work?

Honda RWD transmission isn't really any better. Still an Aisin AZ6.

I had a good look at the MiniTec car when it was sitting around. Looks like PS was hooked up, I don't recall if they'd hooked up AC. About the only new observations I made were:

1. I'd want an impact bar in front of that oil pan. It's a bit lower than the steering rack, but more importantly it's got nothing in front of it for protection. The potential for a bad day lurks underneath.

2. According to the build thread on this forum, you can either modify the intake manifold for a side inlet or keep the throttle body on the front at the price of your PS. The latter is a lot nicer from a cold air setup. The side inlet looks like a bit of an afterthought. On the V8 cars, we saw a big jump in power when we moved that filter out from under the hood. I'd try to package a cold air intake and PS on the car if possible.

Fyi

http://www.ecotecmiata.ca/

rcutclif wrote: But why doesn't megasquirt work? You have injectors, a manifold, and o2 sensors, and maybe some variable valve stuff. MS should be able to handle all of that no problem right?

It's doable. MS3 has dedicated J series V6 ignition mode support.

I have much the same reservations about that oil pan that Keith does, and I'm also a bit concerned that they have cantilevered the engine by mounting it only at the bellhousing and not using the front mount. That could be solved with some sort of additional front support.

Zomby Woof wrote: Fyi http://www.ecotecmiata.ca/

Is there much of a market for this conversion? Honest question ... As I have never heard of this one before tonight.

In reply to einy:

I think there will/should be,I mean its minimal effort mechanically,the engine is found by the thousands for cheap in any junk yard,makes enough power to make a Miata entertaining without breaking everything behind the engine and most importantly too me lightens up the nose of the car.

Should be much easier to keep engine/underhood temps in check at the 200hp level than a boosted BP to make the same hp.

I intend to buy the bits and pcs a bit at a time and do the swap maybe next winter

One of the posting asked the question as to why anyone would put a v6 instead of the v8. Well having just finished a 302 swap, it is nice and tidy, but heavy and more importantly will not be as easy to drive quickly. Point in fact the little 289 Cobras could get almost half a lap over the big blocks if the course didn't have any "extremely " long strait aways...They were just very fast through the corners and much earsier to drive well. The same should be the case with a V6 like the J32A2.

Desmond wrote: As far as N/A power goes, there is a build thread over on ClubRoadster, search for Beck's VVT build or something (not sure if I'm allowed to link to it). Anyways, he did cams, ITBs, header, pretty much everything you can do to an N/A engine, including HEAVY porting and polishing of the head, and he claims to be making 210 WHP (9k rpm redline).

I don't mean to be a jerk, but only 210 WHP for a built modern V6? That sounds really low. I've got a friend making that power reliably on his 2.3 Duratec, and know another guy getting 300 WHP out of his VQ35. Both these motors would be hard-pressed to fit under a Miata hood without an unsightly hood bulge, however.

That's talking about a 1.8 Miata engine. 210 whp is awfully good for that engine, I'd love to know how streetable it is.

About the 289 Cobra comparison - you'd have to try awfully hard to make a Miata handle as badly as a 427 Cobra. I've run the same Miata on the same kart track with a pretty healthy four cylinder and an LS V8, and it's faster with the V8. Not a lot, but the V8 weight gain/balance has not penalized the car to any real extent. And that's a kart track with no real straights. So I wouldn't expect the V6 cars to be "half a lap" ahead of the V8s. They'll feel and sound different, though. I want to drive one.

Kreb wrote:

Desmond wrote: As far as N/A power goes, there is a build thread over on ClubRoadster, search for Beck's VVT build or something (not sure if I'm allowed to link to it). Anyways, he did cams, ITBs, header, pretty much everything you can do to an N/A engine, including HEAVY porting and polishing of the head, and he claims to be making 210 WHP (9k rpm redline).

I don't mean to be a jerk, but only 210 WHP for a built modern V6? That sounds really low. I've got a friend making that power reliably on his 2.3 Duratec, and know another guy getting 300 WHP out of his VQ35. Both these motors would be hard-pressed to fit under a Miata hood without an unsightly hood bulge, however.

He's talking about a VVT 1.8 BP motor. Yes, that would be stupid low for a J series.

http://clubroadster.net/vb_forum/89-roadster-projects/17092-becks-97-build-vvt-motor.html

Been following this for a while. Intrigues me. Considering doing this when the engine in my 99 Miata gives up. Hopefully not anytime soon though.

That's a problem with Miatas. Everyone planning a swap wants one with a clean body and a blown engine - and unless you neglect them or do something stupid with modifications, they just don't blow their engines.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

I had the same problem with girlfriends when I was younger