How Long is Long Enough?

i could never justify doing it, i like old gas engines and at 3.59 a gallon i could make my daily commute for 2 weeks on 10 bucks in gas. they would have to come up with great cheap electric cars for me to even think about owning one.

In reply to Flight Service:

It's unreasonable because we have to walk before we can run. It'd be nice to think we could get an EV that will do 500 miles on a 15 min charge, but we aren't anywhere near that. I'd settle for 2x where we're at now.

The thing that bugs me about the arguments against EV's is the same thing that bugs me about arguments against any number of "alternate" transportation and energy sources. Stop trying to look at any solution as being the ONLY solution. It's not and shouldn't be. There should be many solutions. Some will work better for some folks than others. Some will work better in some areas than others. But to entirely dismiss any one of them simply because it won't work for your situation is ignorant.

In reply to Ian F:

first part I disagree with, the second part I agree with. We have had a policy of allowing people to stagnate new tech because of it being a disruptive tech with the current tech. Negative campaign ads, buying patents, falsified "scientific" reports. It is incredibly bad how much has been squashed so the people keep making a huge profit without having to diversify.

dropstep wrote: at 3.59 a gallon i could make my daily commute for 2 weeks on 10 bucks in gas.

This is why electric cars are not taking over the market. For people they currently work for, they don't drive nearly enough to recoups the added cost, for those that do drive enough and will hit the break even on the cost difference in a couple years they can't make it round trip to work and back. Tesla excluded, I would never hit the break even, because the alternative ice would not be a high end car.

I'll need about a 125 mile range (double my daily commute) to cover hills and hearing/air conditioning needs. I could likely plug in at work, but want the ability to do the commute without a nid point charge.

EVs are getting close, and for me the savings woyld be substantial once they started depreiating a bit.

Ian F wrote:

wbjones wrote: 300+ miles and 15min complete recharge time

This is the sort of unrealistic request that hurt the idea of electric cars. No one is saying an electric car would be the perfect vehicle for everyone or every situation. Unfortunately, the current ~100 mile range isn't quite enough for my ~100 mile daily commute. If they could double that and keep the price in the mid-$30K range, I'd strongly consider buying one. I have a garage and running a 220V line for a charger would be child's play for me. Even compared to my TDI, I've done the math and an electric car would be substantially cheaper for how I drive 90% of the time. And it's not like a don't have a small fleet of gasoline cars to drive if needed...

the question was "how long is long enough" …. then the OP asked what would it take ?

when I was working, electric would have been fine … commute was 2 mi.

that is, as long as I didn't want to go to Asheville after work, that's as much as 20 mi each way … and any running around while I'm there … so it would have HAD to be at least 100mi.

as for now, I've got my race car … EV not going to take it's place, I've got my truck to tow with… EV not going to take it's place, and then I've got my around town/trip car …

well that's what it would take for me …. just here locally, a Volt (if it didn't cost $40k) would do me fine … and since it DOES have a gas engine, it might do so anyway

but for me to consider pure electric … it's got to approach my gas powered vehicle's range, and be able to be recharged as (or nearly as) quickly as I can refill the tank … I'm not willing to go on 600 - 800 mile trips and have to overnight 3 times before I get there

as for it being cheaper (as you point out) … yep … it would … for 90% of what I do … but having to spend another $20-30,000 for that other 10% wipes out any savings the EV would provide

......obligatory hootus comment......

Range aside, EVs are for the majority, coal powered cars. Burning dead dinos to heat water to run a turbine to generate watts to lose a huge percentage of those watts through transmission lines getting them to your house to store them in inefficient chemical modules to finally use them to push yourself down the road is insanity.

Water power. Solar array on your roof and a garden hose, sits up there all day turning our simplest most replenishable resource into hydrogen. The same solar array compresses said hydrogen into tanks waiting to refuel your personal transportation unit. If you are out and about you can buy it and refuel in moments at your nearest quick-e-mart.

The byproduct of hydrogen in a fuel cell is pure water.

It works when it's cold out. How well does that EV work when the temps are 0*F?

Fuel cells and hydrogen. Vastly superior to EV and battery.

In reply to KyAllroad: you are including cost and waste of fuel transportation in the EV example but magically getting pumps, compressors, storage tanks, and solar arrays for free in you fuel cell example. Don't forget your price of the fuel cell itself to make the comparison even more accurate.

All the EV pessimists and hydrogen fans are both in for a big shock in the next few years. Some of those ridiculous requests of EV technology will be fulfilled, and hydrogen will still be extremely hard to contain and transport, mostly fossil-sourced and roughly as expensive as gasoline.

EVs don't advance at the geological pace of ICE technology. They advance at the speed of battery technology. Electric RC planes were a sad joke 20 years ago, and now they're zipping around doing crazy flips, carrying heavy cameras for the better part of an hour and breaking the 400kph mark...do the math.

batteries er... electrical power holder, is the bottle neck. once that is figured out. Electric cars will be the way to go. There are some faster chargers out there that are dong a full charge in 8 minutes in the Leaf/Prius evs. So we have almost got that bottle neck out of the way. Once we get the range up and the weight down...hold on.

KyAllroad wrote: Range aside, EVs are for the majority, coal powered cars. Burning dead dinos to heat water to run a turbine to generate watts to lose a huge percentage of those watts through transmission lines getting them to your house to store them in inefficient chemical modules to finally use them to push yourself down the road is insanity.

Ayup. Especially in NIMBY areas where the power is generated so far away that up to 50% of the electricity is dissipated as transmission losses. That is criminally wasteful.

It works when it's cold out. How well does that EV work when the temps are 0*F?

I asked that question last year, our GRM rsident Leaf owner said surprisingly well. You can preheat the car on shore power, for starters. Looking at the heating problem objectively, the main issues are areas of body contact and keeping the windows clear, things that don't necessarily require that you heat the cabin to 78F like you can do with waste coolant heat.

I suppose my experience with our work GEMs ruined my appreciation for electric vehicles.

When temps get really cold range drops from about 50-60 low speed miles to about 5-6.

Uncomfortably cold miles. Because the heater is your basic hair dryer which can't really warm incoming air to anything resembling comfort.

In reply to KyAllroad:

Gasoline isn't exactly cheap to make either. Through the decades, refineries have been made more efficient, but it still takes a considerable amount of energy to crack crude oil.

Hydrogen is also expensive to make and very difficult to transport and store. I wouldn't hold my breath planning on it being a mainstream fuel.

I don't understand your complaint about EV's being "coal fired" due to the common source of electricity. Coal plants in the US are pretty damn efficient and cheap. That's why it's used. Electricity from a coal fired plant is a far cheaper source of energy than a gasoline ICE.

I also have experience with GEMs. They have eight (or was it ten?) lead-acid 12v batteries on what looks like a Polaris ATV chassis with an electric motor between the front wheels, and laughably cheap cabin construction.

I'll consider those as EVs when side-by-sides with weather enclosures are considered to be gasoline powered cars.

Heat the seats, heat the windows, have effective cabin insulation, and you don't need nearly the heating requirements that the old heated-airflow paradigm has you believe.

The local NASA research center uses GEMs for in-hangar transport, they tow 'em to us for service. Not legal for use on public roads with a speed limit over 25mph, and NASA is on a 40mph road.

200 miles with the heater on and AWD and I would own one right now. I'd almost pay double the price of a Leaf to get double the battery and a motor on both ends.

Oh, and 50% transmission losses? Who pulled that number out of where? Maybe 2% as a general rule, but far less than the tanker truck delivering fuel uses in fuel as a percentage.

I could do essentially 100% of my utility driving w/ a 100 mile range electric car.

But, I'm not going to live forever and I LOVE to drive. Just sitting in my 525iT, Miata, Sprite, or M3 and executing shifts and being smooth gives me joy, every time. So I'm just not going to be an electric car person, probably. Ever. A Tesla is a very, very nice modern car, but I'm never, ever-ever going to spend that kind of bank on a single car I can't do anything to. Instead I'll try to ride my bicycle more and use the V8 4Runner less.

motomoron wrote: I *could* do essentially 100% of my utility driving w/ a 100 mile range electric car. But, I'm not going to live forever and I LOVE to drive. Just sitting in my 525iT, Miata, Sprite, or M3 and executing shifts and being smooth gives me joy, every time. So I'm just not going to be an electric car person, probably. Ever. A Tesla is a very, very nice modern car, but I'm never, ever-ever going to spend that kind of bank on a single car I can't do anything to. Instead I'll try to ride my bicycle more and use the V8 4Runner less.

I am completely with you on this one. And I do have the hots for an EV though........but I just don't think I could drive such an appliance type vehicle all/most of the time. I am also really into the ecology/green lifestyle so it would scratch that itch as well but damn, I would have to keep my other cars for fun so it kinda defeats the purpose. Having to have multiple cars for different things. It would cost more money than it saves. And the upfront cost of an EV even with the tax credit is still pretty expensive.

lrrs wrote:

dropstep wrote: at 3.59 a gallon i could make my daily commute for 2 weeks on 10 bucks in gas.

This is why electric cars are not taking over the market. For people they currently work for, they don't drive nearly enough to recoups the added cost, for those that do drive enough and will hit the break even on the cost difference in a couple years they can't make it round trip to work and back. Tesla excluded, I would never hit the break even, because the alternative ice would not be a high end car.

Interesting. Cost of fuel is not what draws me to electric. Simplicity is.

My DD costs me about 10 bucks in fuel a week to commute in. Not huge money, but at $520/yr it isn't insignificant either. Add other non-commute trips in, and that number is more like $1263 (amount spent in 2014) and it becomes pretty significant.

BUT, in the last 3 years since buying it, I've spent over 13 hours standing at gas pumps (158 fill ups * 5 min avg). That's wasted time. Plugging it in takes a couple seconds on either end of each trip. I've also done 10+ oil changes, 3 transmission services (admittedly, not common on a manual), and changed my spark plugs twice - all not required on an electric car.

I just read they're updating the Tesla Roadster to a range of 400 miles per charge.

Of course the Roadster doesn't have the quick change battery pack. But 400 miles is starting to get into the useable for a day trip category.

I filled my DD up at $1.85 for Reg. yesterday with my Kroger discount card. Prices like that will probably set back electric rides for at least a while.

During all of this conversation I haven't noticed a lot of mention of what I consider the gorilla in the room. The Power Grid. It hasn't been but just a few short years ago we had rolling black-outs and brown-outs at many spots across North America.

What's likely to happen when everyone comes home in the evening, plugs in their car, while dinner is cooking, & it's the heat of the day and the A/C is trying to keep the home cool? How far will we drive the next day if the grid sags, blacks out, or is hacked into?

Also several people have mentioned charging stations at work or at school. How many plug-in stations have you seen? I know of none around here. Think they'll be installed in enough places to keep up with the demand? And at what cost? If people start using them, they sure won't be free for long.

I have seen a few in the Nola area, mostly in the Artsy districts.

I would say putting in Electric charging stations would be much easier than putting in a gas station.

Pull in to the parking garage, insert your credit card and pay for your charge and parking and go on your way. The parking garage/lot set would love to find another way to berkeley you over. This would just be really a helpful one.

Flight Service wrote: Pull in to the parking garage, insert your credit card and pay for your charge and parking and go on your way. The parking garage/lot set would love to find another way to berkeley you over. This would just be really a helpful one.

They would. They would consider it a convenience fee due to the demand. Early adopters will make out then once enough people are on board the price goes up. I use to do wvo but not any more as it is now and has been for a while cheaper to drive my neon due to the cost of a wvo, which is no longer a waste product due to the demand.

Power grid demand is always low overnight. Adding load then would actually be helpful, but it would require a supply with a meter that the utility company could turn off remotely during peak loads like a lot of electric water heaters and irrigation pumps.

During the day, though, expect to pay through the nose to top off your charge unless someone figures out some sort of swappable battery format and has charged ones on hand.

ProDarwin wrote: That's wasted time.

I NEVER waste time when I fill up.

Pay-at-the-pump allows me to start the pump, walk inside and take a piss, buy something, and hop in the truck and go.

It is VERY efficient time management.

If an electric car never has to stop, when am I gonna piss?

SVreX wrote: Pay-at-the-pump allows me to start the pump, walk inside and take a piss, buy something, and hop in the truck and go.

Do that around here and you may come back to find out the attendant inside turned off the pump as soon as you walked away from the car. "Safety Issue" I've been told.