In reply to Keith Tanner :
Well said sir.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Well said sir.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
TOMO= Tom o'Gorman. One helluva fantastic driver and all around great guy. He can make most of us amateurs feel slow in our own car. I have no doubt I could toss TOMO the keys to the Rio and he'd knock 5 seconds off my best time in two laps.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Tomo is an alien (and pro-driver) that you'll see at most GridLife and SCCA TT events. He offers coaching and data laps. He's notorious for hurting feelings after just one lap in your car. More of an east coast fixture. Very nice dude, he helped me shave massive time at TTNats this past year and worked with me a ton despite being super busy with coaching (and winning his class).
I was turning low 2:26's in my car and he jumped in the car and turned a pair of 2:23.5's. He thinks there's a 2:22 in it, I'd agree, but it's going to be hard.
His data lap in my car:
In reply to accordionfolder :
"Alien" is a term I haven't heard used in a while. Still appropriate.
In reply to bobzilla :
I aspire to be half the driver Tom is. I thought I was getting pretty quick and smart as a driver until he knocked me back down some rungs. I still can't fathom how he adjusted his braking so confidently one lap in on a car he'd sat in for a grand total of 2 minutes.
In reply to accordionfolder :
Dude, If I get 1/4 as good as that man I'd be a god. First time I watched him at a divisional in that white 914 was awe inspiring.
I have tracked old VWs, 400+hp pony cars, and lately my 944. Interestingly (or not) I run roughly the same laptimes in all of the cars, which probably means Im slow and terrible, but also maybe because I tend to have a lot more feedback and confidence in the low hp cars than I do in the big, heavy, high hp cars. I have also met and been on track with this "famous" Tom O guy. What was the question again?
In reply to TR7 (Forum Supporter) :
Keith mentioned not knowing who he was. I don't think he really considers himself famous, he certainly doesn't have much of an ego when you talk with him - the dude is just fast.
I was arguing that lower power cars can teach a ton. And are definitely a fantastic tool to novice/advanced drivers. Reach-able limits and slowing down the process allow you to examine what makes a car fast. Those dynamics apply to big power or little power alike.
Irony, here's Tomo racing in the sidebar (yellow s2k):
Another benefit for us low power small track cars: cost of racing. Those consumables like tires and brakes. That C6Z might get a couple weekends on a set of tires and brakes. I can get a whole season out of them and my tires cost ~$450 for a set and brakes are $300 for pads and rotors.
bobzilla said:Another benefit for us low power small track cars: cost of racing. Those consumables like tires and brakes. That C6Z might get a couple weekends on a set of tires and brakes. I can get a whole season out of them and my tires cost ~$450 for a set and brakes are $300 for pads and rotors.
This is the main reason the my Camaro sits while I race the Formula Ford and the Miata. One set of tires for the Camaro last about 30 laps at Sandia Speedway and costs as much as my tire budget for a full season for the Miata. I get a bigger thrill from the driving experience of the Camaro than I do from the Miata but not that much bigger of a thrill.
On coaching in high HP cars; I've done a lot of that and the only students that have made me uncomfortable are the ones that don't listen and if they don't listen I make them pull off. Sure higher speeds increase risk a bit and the chance of injury in an off a lot but if the instructor manages the student and stays ahead of them in the car the risk can be managed.
On student's buying high HP cars: As Tom said, there are different things that bring different people to track days and driving schools. If someone wants to race then I wouldn't suggest that they start in a high HP car. In fact I've got a student with a 1,000+ HP Corvette that's buying a Miata based in part on my strong suggestion that it'll help his driving. Other people want to drive really fast or just enjoy their high HP car without getting arrested. If you're a Mustang guy and want to drive a Mustang really fast then you're just not going to be excited about driving a Miata or a 510 or really anything that's not a Mustang. I'm happy to help those people have that experience.
Keith, what you're reading as "self-congratulatory", I read as people pointing out that power is only one variable of many when it comes to turning fast laps. Novices often believe that power is the most important, experience tells otherwise. Some people have commented that HPDE events aren't fun anymore because of the power arms race. Personally I disagree, I don't think it has anything to do with power. The fast guys in my race class are often 4+ seconds per lap faster than me in an identically prepared car, so it's safe to say my ego is pretty well in check.
That said, I'd rather read threads like this than the "watch me stomp all over poor people in their Miatas with my GT350" that I often see on FB threads. Let's let David have his moment against Goliath once in a while, shall we? Our sport won't be any better if people think they can only have fun at the track in 500+hp cars with 305 tires.
Final point: yes, high powered cars require new and different skills to drive optimally. But every single driver I know who's fast in a low powered car is also fast in a high powered car. The reverse is certainly not true.
You wanna know a great battleground? Sundae Cup. While it's mostly Fit's (i mean, it was designed around them) there are also Mazda 2's, Fiestas and my awesome and best looking Rio. It's a tight community. We work on making each other faster. We share, we congratulate and we are the slowest MF'ers out there. But I can almost guarantee that at any GL event, the sundae cup guys are having the most fun.
I don't go to these things to be the fastest because I know I don't have what it takes. But with these cars it makes it so friggin rewarding when you get it right. And the atmosphere that these people I gladly call friends bring is even better. #slowcarforlyfe
In reply to accordionfolder :
I was just kidding around.
In reply to TR7 (Forum Supporter) :
lol, oops, went right over my head.
I am not advocating that everyone run out and buy a GT350. I'm just saying that yes, slow cars are fun but they're not everything.
I have come across drivers who are fast in slow cars but not in fast cars (relative to the speed potential of the car). I work with some. Their comfort level and familiarity drops quite quickly once the added distraction of speed and braking and acceleration management gets factored in.
In reply to bobzilla :
Gridlife is getting a lot of things right as far as making a home for a lot of types of cars. NASA is still the only one that makes a great home for the likes of 1.6 miata and d15 civic (they do power:weight + mod points) on road courses so far as I know. I wish SCCA TT had a better catch for those slow of cars.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Agreed, that layer of speed (obviously) makes things come up faster and changes how you respond vs having a lot of time to think about things. Though the dynamics themselves aren't different, just condensed. I would argue that there's almost never a good reason for an absolute novice to start in one of these cars we are discussing. Most novices are using all their computational power to manage traffic, apexes, and corner workers - they always seem to feel like they're at the raged edge right up until you lightly cruise by them in a stock honda civic on all seasons ;)
In addition to the typical like I posted in my videos, I've seen lots and lots of heartache and hard knocks that would've never happened had they started with something easier to manage.
This was this guys first track day. Bought this well prepped car from a friend of a friend. #Oops
If I'm coming across as advocating for novices in 400 hp cars, I am not expressing myself well. I have said earlier in this thread that I am not comfortable instructing in that situation.
My comments about what you learn from fast cars are for experienced drivers. You have to walk before you can run. Just don't forget that at some point, running is allowed :)
Keith Tanner said:If I'm coming across as advocating for novices in 400 hp cars, I am not expressing myself well. I have said earlier in this thread that I am not comfortable instructing in that situation.
My comments about what you learn from fast cars are for experienced drivers. You have to walk before you can run. Just don't forget that at some point, running is allowed :)
Agreed x2 - I agreed with you last post as well. I was just noting more about the novices or even strong intermediate in the latest gen (or even previous gen) big power cars. I mean, I want to have a truly "fast car" one day as well, but I think lower power cars are great too.
In reply to APEowner :
I started running an F500 because I wanted Formula Ford lap times for less than Formula Vee money. I loved driving the D-sports racer but eeeeeee was that thing expensive to run. It was really cool to tell people that I'm running within a second a lap of a National Champ in an Ex-Roush Trans-Am car but it sure wasn't sucking up my every last dollar cool....it had to go.
Oddly enough if I had unlimited funds I might own a DSR/P2 car but I'm not sure I'd bring it to a track days. They are so much faster than road cars that you'd spend tons of time stuck behind cars. At the groups with open passing the cars are so low that other drivers might not see you.
I have a bunch of laps and a couple of road race regional class championships in a Neon. I have a couple of ministock championships in a Neon, as well as a couple of seasons in a late model.
I fully advocate starting out in a lower powered car, just so you are not going as fast when you run out of talent, but there isn't as much difference as a guy might think. Subtle moves on the pedals become important, and stuff comes at you faster, but there is less of a percentage difference between fast and slow in a late model than there is in a beginner class like ministock. Took me a year to get comfortable, but everything is basically the same. Slow in, fast out. It's always easier to add a bit of speed than it is to lose some in the middle of a corner. Look beyond the guy in front of you. All those little sayings are true, no matter the speed of the car. Going back to the mini after a couple of years, though, stuff sure did happen slower.
I've raced against people with too much horsepower and no other prep or skills, and it is a huge pain in the ass. Get passed but something at the end of the straight, then putter through behind it until patience goes, and I send the Neon in door to door beside a 911 with more dollars in tires than i spend in a year...
Worst of all are the guys that show up in their Japanese turbo cars with all the billet tow hooks and not a clue. What a pain in the ass...
I enjoy the fact that I can go a whole day on track with a tank of 91 gas and my tires and brakes get me through two years on track and at the autocross.
Having said that, if I had more power I'd spend less time on the boring parts (the straights) and more time in the corners per session so there is that 
In reply to accordionfolder :
A friend once asked me to drive my sports racer to which I replied; "you'll kill your self in that thing". He was experienced but had zero time in any sort of single seater much less a fast single seater and he's not the type to Bob Costasfoot around getting to know the car.
I am surprised someone would sell a fast car to a inexperienced friend.
In reply to Tom1200 :
I did a track day with a Formua B (that's what my notes said) car one time. It was operating on a completely different level from me. Driver probably was as well. I'm not sure power level was a good metric to use when comparing those two cars :)
In reply to Tom1200 :
I believe the buyer wasn't a friend to the seller (lol) - the person who sold it was a friend of a friend of mine. The car was pretty quick. That's just one such story btw, I've seen many such cars end all balled up. Another reason to track "slower" cars, generally (though not always) it's a cheaper car too.
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