How Safe are Hybrid Cars to Work On?

Following up on the heels of the Honda CR-Z thread, I was wondering if the collective is being exposed to an unknown risk of electrocution while working on these cars?

As someone who has worked around high voltage electrical equipment, I know for a fact that our lackadaisical and occasional beer drinking hobby does not mix well when there is a potential for rapid electron deployment.

Since I know for a fact that many here will not be able to stand by waiting for the tow truck or the bank finance department to respond in case of a malfunction, has anyone here heard of any mishaps as of yet, or have any information on how to stay safe while DIY-ing these cars?

I KNOW that "disconnect power before servicing" is the safety mantra. However, as I know too well from my time in industrial machine repair "How the %^# am I gonna find the problem if the power is off!" So you go ahead and bypass all the safety stuff.

On a similar note, what are the scenarios for bad electrical stuff to happen in case of accident? Anything first responders should be aware of? Can the body become live?How toxic is the smoke if it should involve the batteries?

So, who knows how best to fry themselves on one of these ecological wonders, so that the rest of us can learn to avoid the opportunity?

Just don't touch any harness or connector that's bright orange.

If you change the oil on the gas motor, keep the key as far from the car as possible (most are keyless entry/start). Quick lube places have toasted many engines from the engine starting while the oil is drained because it's trying to charge a low battery in the middle of a service.

All the hybrid classes I've taken just say to stay the hell away from the high voltage side, but service the gas side like any other car. Oh, and don't use the wrong a/c oil, as it will fry the hybrid system

I maintain my Prius without worry.

Cone_Junky wrote: Just don't touch any harness or connector that's bright orange. If you change the oil on the gas motor, keep the key as far from the car as possible (most are keyless entry/start). Quick lube places have toasted many engines from the engine starting while the oil is drained because it's trying to charge a low battery in the middle of a service. All the hybrid classes I've taken just say to stay the hell away from the high voltage side, but service the gas side like any other car. Oh, and don't use the wrong a/c oil, as it will fry the hybrid system

Every hybrid I've seen has a way to disable the Big Battery. If it's disabled (usually a special two/three step switch in the trunk) then the car will not try to start under any conditions.

Generally speaking, disable the Big Battery, wait a couple minutes for the caps to discharge, and you treat it like any other car. Careful around the orange-jacketed cabling just to be safe, of course.

You do need to check fluid types (like the A/C oil - even a little residual PAG from a standard A/C system can make it conductive enough to cause a car to burn down) and in general follow procedures per the service manual, but aside from that - it's just a car! It's an electro/mechanical device put together by people, and engineered by people so that people can service it.

The hybrid classes I've been to say how to service the batteries and such. Some of 'em are neat... to get around patent gefuffles, the Toyotas use many small cells. The computer monitors each stack of cells, and you can gauge each individual cell's life and replace just the ones that are bad.

Basically, a relay, switched by the 12v battery completes the high voltage circuit. If you disconnect the 12v battery, that should de-energize the system.

Stay away from the orange stuff anyway...

http://www.fireengineering.com/articles/2010/12/bindon-mva-scenario.html

I had not thought about capacitors. Hate those bleeping things ever since I discovered them in TVs as a kid. Who knew...?!

Extremely important!!! If it has orange cables going into it or yellow lightning bolts on it, don't crack it open unless you REALLY know what you are getting into and know the safety procedures.

Otherwise, for mass produced EVs and hybrids, you're not going to hurt yourself for regular maintenance. For weird problems, I guaran-damn-tee-ya that poking a metal thing into an orange cable or taking a lid off something that has orange cables is NOT going to fix the problem. Even if the problem is inside of there, 99.99% of the time you're not going to be able to fix it without replacing the whole component.

I have repaired vehicles with high voltage power on board many times, both on normal and on high voltage system repairs. Sure, you don't want to go at the thing with a sawzall, but you weren't going to do that to your car anyway. Generally speaking, it's the same as any non-high-voltage vehicle for 99% of repairs. For that 1%, you can use a service manual, internet instruction guide, or bring to a shop like you would with your car you drive now.

Bryce

Don't forget to read the service manual for everything. Most cars have computer control of most things, hybrids tend to have computer control of EVERYTHING, even things that you may not think are related.

For example, many hybrids have electronic control of at least half of the brake system. The pedal applies only one axle, the ABS applies the other half, just like a late 80's Bonneville SSEi. (And you wondered how they are able to smoothly integrate regenerative braking with regular friction braking! It's torque-demand throttle control in reverse) You need to put the vehicle into service mode so that it never tries to apply the brakes while you're working on it. That will either become very messy, or the first leg of a journey to the ER, depending on where your fingers are when it happens.

OTOH, you need to do this with many newer cars with electric parking brakes. First time I did a VWAG product with them, I was all full of "No way, that can't be right." But sure enough, plug in the Ross-Tech, click a few keys and the rear calipers screwed themselves in, click some more and it goes into service mode, perform brake job as normal, click again and it re-extends the pistons and you're done. Neeeeeat.

Technology is going to happen, one can either roll with it or complain that nobody's buying buggy whips anymore.

electric parking brakes? really?

i can't be the only person that thinks that the braking and steering systems- as well as the shifter- should all be mechanical or hydraulic systems that are able to do their jobs if the car loses power for some reason... right?

a few years back i got to ride around the MN state fairgrounds during the Car Craft Summer Nats in a newish Z06 Corvette with one of the head engineers at GM. being my first time in a Corvette that was built after the mid 80's, i was amazed, puzzled, and confused by the door handles that were buttons that told a computer that you would like it to please open the door whenever it had the time to do it for you.. i asked the engineer why they thought that was a good idea and what would happen if you found yourself in a situation where you needed to get out of the car fast and/or someone needed to get into the car to pull you out fast and the car no longer had power. like after an accident or something.. he told me that was a good question and to not worry about it..

i decided right then and there that no matter how rich i am after i win the lottery, i'm not buying a car built after about the year 2000. and definitely never going to buy a hybrid- those things are just rolling piles of complexity and stuff to go wrong..

novaderrik wrote: electric parking brakes? really? i can't be the only person that thinks that the braking and steering systems- as well as the shifter- should all be mechanical or hydraulic systems that are able to do their jobs if the car loses power for some reason... right?

Electric parking brake means at least one less hole to put in the body and one less pedal/handle to try to find room for. Better NVH and (theoretically) ergonomics result. Plus, VW being VW, I bet they also like the idea that they can just plug in a connector instead of routing a cable. Seems like everything they do is geared towards making assembly easier.

At least in the case of the VW, it can't be applied at speeds over 2mph, so it's not an emergency brake by any stretch.

BMW and Mercedes have been doing the electronic door handle thing for years. The reason is really simple: With frameless windows, they shove the window a half-inch or so upwards after the door is shut so that it can't bow out at speed. When you open the door, it first has to lower the window out of that channel.

Having taken apart both Insight and Prius packs without killing myself, the thing i most want to say is...

There's no situation where you get into the high-voltage stuff without doing research first. You're not going to get in there with a meter and some butt connectors and fix anything (or its extremely unlikely). For the most part, when the car is put together everything that is dangerous will be labeled as such. For the most part, any time the stuff is taken apart it will be after you've done thorough research on the pitfalls to avoid and know what you're after and what not to mess with.

If you open it up and you DONT know what to do next, you probably should not have opened it up.

I guess it comes down to.. if you have to ask.. do more research. like Nashco said, the people who work on hybrids are mostly just like the rest of us. They just had the information they needed. As long as you get the information you need, you will be pretty safe.

Vigo wrote: If you open it up and you DONT know what to do next, you probably should not have opened it up.

My wife said that about the toaster too but my eyebrows grew back and once it stopped smoking it worked again, you just have to flip the bread halfway through

novaderrik wrote: electric parking brakes? really? i can't be the only person that thinks that the braking and steering systems- as well as the shifter- should all be mechanical or hydraulic systems that are able to do their jobs if the car loses power for some reason... right?

"Why would you trust fluid to stop your car?"

Henry Ford

Remember, electricty doesn't break. It's ALWAYS a mechanical failure.

Trans_Maro wrote:

novaderrik wrote: electric parking brakes? really? i can't be the only person that thinks that the braking and steering systems- as well as the shifter- should all be mechanical or hydraulic systems that are able to do their jobs if the car loses power for some reason... right?

"Why would you trust fluid to stop your car?" Henry Ford Remember, electricty doesn't break. It's ALWAYS a mechanical failure.

unless it's a software failure..

If you follow up a software failure with 18 levels of human failure you might even end up with an injury. Although if you picked the 270hp v6 it takes less human failure, maybe only 8 or 9 consecutive failures to do the right thing.

OK, so I will conced that the hybrids are safe enough if the person doing the work is trained and knows where to stop.

Same can be said of the petrol bombs we all work on without a second thought. The good news is that even with the potential, there are relatively few explosive or combustive situations that occur.

But they do happen. Having an ICU nurse for a wife unit, I get to hear all about them.

So, I guess what I am getting at here is more related to the "Darwin Award" category. What could the "Hold my beer and watch this" crowd be getting into if they are let loose on hybrids?

novaderrik wrote: electric parking brakes? really? i can't be the only person that thinks that the braking and steering systems- as well as the shifter- should all be mechanical or hydraulic systems that are able to do their jobs if the car loses power for some reason... right?

Ever lived in a rusty area? After about 5 years, most parking/emergency brakes don't work anymore unless they're used every day. Of course, you find this out only when you need it. At least an electric system can monitor itself and let you know when there's a problem.

The high-voltage systems are a potential issue for emergency responders (firefighters, wreckers, etc) so the automakers have put together documents to train them on how to minimize the dangers from the high voltage systems and possibly damaged batteries. The Ford Escape document is here:

http://www.motorcraftservice.com/vdirs/quickref/guide-escape.pdf

You can probably find the same thing for any hybrid and use that to find out how to protect yourself when working on the car.

novaderrik wrote:

Trans_Maro wrote:

novaderrik wrote: electric parking brakes? really? i can't be the only person that thinks that the braking and steering systems- as well as the shifter- should all be mechanical or hydraulic systems that are able to do their jobs if the car loses power for some reason... right?

"Why would you trust fluid to stop your car?" Henry Ford Remember, electricty doesn't break. It's ALWAYS a mechanical failure.

unless it's a software failure..

And we've arrived at why modern cars terrify me. Because software WILL fail. It's not an if, it's a big fat when. You can take my cable-throttle, hydraulic brake, mechanical steering car away from me when you pry it from my cold, dead, technophobe fingers.

I will further display a closed mind in this thread by saying, "I just eliminate the possibility of electric shock when working on a hybird vehicle by not driving one."

This has been Twin_Cam's angry Saturday rant. Carry on.

Seriously, it's probably pretty hard to electrocute yourself. Even the techs at the dealer have to be taken into account by the manufacturers. Yes, they're trained, but they're going to make mistakes, so there needs to be safeguards. Just be careful, and if you're unsure if something's live, break out the multimeter.

Keith wrote:

novaderrik wrote: electric parking brakes? really? i can't be the only person that thinks that the braking and steering systems- as well as the shifter- should all be mechanical or hydraulic systems that are able to do their jobs if the car loses power for some reason... right?

Ever lived in a rusty area? After about 5 years, most parking/emergency brakes don't work anymore unless they're used every day. Of course, you find this out only when you need it. At least an electric system can monitor itself and let you know when there's a problem.

i live in MN, i know all about rust..

Keith wrote:

novaderrik wrote: electric parking brakes? really? i can't be the only person that thinks that the braking and steering systems- as well as the shifter- should all be mechanical or hydraulic systems that are able to do their jobs if the car loses power for some reason... right?

Ever lived in a rusty area? After about 5 years, most parking/emergency brakes don't work anymore unless they're used every day. Of course, you find this out only when you need it. At least an electric system can monitor itself and let you know when there's a problem.

i live in MN, i know all about rust.. and i also know all about the effects of the MN climate and the chemicals used to fight the ice on the roads on electrical connections..

Well, if stupid people go after hybrids trying to kill themselves, it wont be much of a show. You might touch something and yell very briefly and die with no real fireworks. AFAIK the high voltage packs are all still fused so a dead short (human body has too high of resistance to qualify) is just going to pop a fuse for the most part.

I like to add tech where it makes sense but I hate it when high-tech stuff is used where it provides no advantage and only complicates things. The electronic door handles being a perfect example. But what I hate even more is making the new electronic systems work in an unintuitive manner. Those electric parking brakes? They should only act on handbrake lever position, nothing else. Push the lever down and the pistons retract. But instead for incomprehensible reasons they can act on their own and require a safe service mode.

Electric cars and hybrids, if possible, should use normally-off relays at the main battery pack terminals and cut them when the key is turned into the OFF position (or whatever the keyless equivalent is if people must use the awful things), and only power them back on when a charging plug is inserted or the car is turned back on. Maybe make crash sensors cut these too for crash safety. If that's not possible (or maybe in addition) then have a big red battery cutoff handle you can pull with directions to it on a plate near the 12v systems battery. Simple, intuitive, safe.

In reply to GameboyRMH:

"Electric cars and hybrids, if possible, should use normally-off relays at the main battery pack terminals and cut them when the key is turned into the OFF position" - They already do.

" Maybe make crash sensors cut these too for crash safety." - Already Done

"then have a big red battery cutoff handle you can pull with directions" - These are already there but are typically orange. They are usually located near the high voltage battery

Another feature is most mfrs design the high voltage systems so they are not grounded to the vehicle's body. On the DC side of the circuits there are separate positive and negative cables that are pretty well insulated. The AC is the same.

I think some people here are 15+ years behind the curve. There is such a thing as courts and lawyers so its not like hybrids go out the door half baked and full of safety problems.

As ive said elsewhere, if gas engines had as advanced of controls as electric drivetrains in hybrids do, they'd never break. Electric drivetrains have WAY MORE functionality built in that prevents things from going wrong than gas drivetrains do. The only way you can screw one up or get it to kill you is by trying to go around its protections or clearly marked warnings.