How will autonomous cars affect our sport? And what are we doing about it today?

Like random shower thoughts, this occurred to me while dropping the kids off at daycare this morning.

1. Whether we like it or not, autonomous cars are right around the corner.
2. Many people and companies are spending lots of energy thinking about and preparing for the change (car companies, taxi-and-gypsy-taxi services, trucking companies, insurance companies, dealership and valuation companies, etc, etc, etc).

So, with that in mind - I open the discussion. How will autonomous cars impact the sport of autocross/rallycross, and what should we do about it?

P.S. I guess there is a corollary question about any car hobby activity (club racing, dirt-track, lemons, car shows, mud trucks, tractor pulls, etc), but let's for now keep this focused on autox/rallyx. I say that because in my mind, autox and rallyx are the two events that are driver focused but the vast majority of entrants are "arrive and drive" in a street legal vehicle.

I don't think affect anything for quite a while. There's a huge number of legal and ethical issues that need to be worked out prior to autonomous cars becoming wide spread and, as much as tech companies like to think otherwise, technology doesn't necessarily cover all circumstances. Which means humans will still need to be in the loop in some capacity.

As for our sport, quoting Jay Leno, "Cars will become like horses." I'd imagine you'll be able to drive and race for quite a while (making up numbers 15 years?) or at least until autonomous mode becomes mandated after all the thorny legal and ethical issues are worked out.

I wasn't a huge proponent of autonomous cars initially but found myself wishing for them to come sooner after I was nearly side swiped by the same car twice on the way home last week and dealing with left lane sitters/pace-matchers on the turnpike the week before that.

Side note: It's interesting to watch the autonomous car technology develop because the vast majority of people (read: media) view it like autopilot on an airplane. The difference is there's nothing to hit, and very few surprises, at thirty thousand feet. That is as long as the TCAS is working.

It would be nice to be driven home after a long weekend at the track or a long day at an autocross. Just load up the car and get in and tell Google to 'Go Home!".

The0retical wrote: As for our sport, quoting Jay Leno, "Cars will become like horses."

This is starting to get at what I am saying. No longer do you ride your horse to the track and race/show/dressage/whatever (I guess you CAN, but DOES anyone?). You now need a big truck and trailer. Many (most?) autox/rallyx cars do not need a big truck and trailer. Some are even DD's.

Also, even of the cars that do need a truck and trailer, 99.8 percent of them started life as a car sold to the general public for 'commuting' purpose.

trucke wrote: It would be nice to be driven home after a long weekend at the track or a long day at an autocross. Just load up the car and get in and tell Google to 'Go Home!".

excellent! (and I agree)

So there will have to be some way to ensure that google does not drive or intervene during timed runs?

In reply to Robbie:

I'd assume that there will be a way for the driver to interface with the car for quite a while in the form of traditional controls. The sense and avoid systems are getting pretty good on autonomous vehicles but there are a lot of situations where they simply won't work. The most egregious example was that fatal Tesla accident where there was a white truck in the road on a bright sunny day and the sensors missed it.

I highly doubt that one of them would be able to make it up my driveway unassisted either due to the brush on either side, sudden drop offs over the stream (covered by brush), and the size of the hill.

Either that or Logitech will make us a set of traditional controls to plug into the OBD2 port. (For off-road use only!)

trucke wrote: It would be nice to be driven home after a long weekend at the track or a long day at an autocross. Just load up the car and get in and tell Google to 'Go Home!".

That would be great. I've slept outside the gates at many tracks because we were in no condition to drive home after a long weekend at the track.

If we get to a point where cars stop coming with driver controls I suppose the aftermarket will step on like it did on short track racing. It's been almost 30 years since the last full frame midsize car fell off an assembly line but there are a variety of purpose built chassis that are safer, faster, and easier to repair and maintain without getting much more expensive.

Airbags and automatic braking have already caused some issues with cars used in autocross. Stability control is another nanny that some people love to hate.

I'd also not be surprised if some weird classing rules start to happen and shifter cart classes become more popular. We might also see some "average" cars develop a bit of a cult following, simply because they're able to still compete in a traditional event.

I actually think things like autocross and rally cross could be used to "teach" autonomous vehicles in ways. Avoidance maneuvers, traction loss issues, things like that.

I'd kind of like to see a self driving car vs human driver on a Solo level in the future.

What I'm kind of looking forward to, and this is purely from sporting aspect, is how much faster and more intense racing can get when you get rid of that bag of meat behind the wheel. No longer needing to worry about keeping a human conscious through extreme g forces, could be fun to watch. 200mph into reducing radius switchbacks, or other crazy things.

"Siri, should I enter this optional slalom on the left or the right?"

Brett_Murphy wrote: We might also see some "average" cars develop a bit of a cult following

You mean like neons, focuses, and civics? har har har.

All joking aside, I agree with you. I bet the distinction between transportation vehicle and autox vehicle will grow, and it will become more popular to bring a toy to race with. Shifter carts are on the cheaper end of full on toy vehicles, so I agree they might grow in popularity. Very few electronic 'nannies' to defeat as well.

RevRico wrote: I'd kind of like to see a self driving car vs human driver on a Solo level in the future.

I predict it will play out just like the original chess battle. But humans will not hang on for years. Maybe we will be king for a month or two.

Would certainly be nice to be able to have your car show you a 'pro' run though, think of the learning you could have by watching the "ideal".

JG Pasterjak wrote: "Siri, should I enter this optional slalom on the left or the right?"

This is hilarious. But seriously, is it cheating?

Does it make the whole idea of an optional slalom moot?

In reply to Wall-e:

I think the aftermarket thing starts to get close to the shifter cart point.

Shifter carts are aftermarket, faster than cars, mostly cheap, easier on consumables, don't need as much space to run, need less space to store, easier to work on, blah, blah, blah.

Does autox become a shifter cart sport?

I think eventually we'll see more and more autonomous cars of some sort, and at some point they'll get their own lane, kinda like a car pool lane. Then eventually they'll be a given, and watch the regular cars go the way of the horse and buggy.

Which includes taking your "regular" car to a special track for fun. Maybe even more than race tracks, maybe it'll spawn an amusement park-like place where you can just drive regular cars around thru made-up villages with long-forgotten biz's like Block Buster and Kmart.

Robbie wrote:

Brett_Murphy wrote: We might also see some "average" cars develop a bit of a cult following

You mean like neons, focuses, and civics? har har har.

I was thinking about cars that don't have much of a following now. Like a Camry or Taurus. We still have people fielding cars that are antiques at the national level- as nannies and such grow more complex, it wouldn't surprise me at all if we saw some classes develop that factored in cars that have undefeatable traction control, automatic braking and other nannies.

Up until the point where the nannies make the car faster, that is.

I suppose some clever person will come up with a program where by you make one run though an autocross course and then just press the max attack button and let the car do the rest.

As for autonomous cars; gee new software never as any bugs in it and never gets hacked. Happily you can just pull a fuse like one does with ABS and stability control.

You're going to have two types of racing.

You'll have the engineers who are building the cars and programming the computers for the fastest possible laps, and then you'll have the luddites who will actually drive the cars, as said before, just like horse racing.

Cars that you can operate yourself will be a luxury item. A manual transmission car will be like a bolt action rifle. Sure, the modern setups are better/faster, but some people like to do it themselves.

I know I'll get faster and definitely more consistent times.

RevRico wrote: What I'm kind of looking forward to, and this is purely from sporting aspect, is how much faster and more intense racing can get when you get rid of that bag of meat behind the wheel. No longer needing to worry about keeping a human conscious through extreme g forces, could be fun to watch. 200mph into reducing radius switchbacks, or other crazy things.

That holds no interest for me at all. If you are going to watch that, why not just do it all virtually, and then you don't have to worry about bending parts?

In reply to Streetwiseguy:

Cause I've been doing it virtually for 20 years now. Videogames kept getting more life like, we really are getting to a point where life can get more videogame like.

I see it as a bigger step up from drone racing, which has proven to be more entertaining than expected.

Besides, when things go wrong, and they will, it would be interesting to see from a safe distance. I probably sound like an shiny happy person, but the only reason I even bother watching NASCAR or formula 1 is the crashes. Watching people drive 500 miles to the left, or a season passing leader with 6 passes is BORING by itself. Making the crashes safer but bigger would greatly increase my interest in the sports.

I think I remember seeing years ago the only thing stopping formula cars from being able to race upside down was the human element. The down force is more than sufficient to hold the cars to the ceiling at speed. This could introduce whole new worlds in track design, and really blur the line between fantasy and reality.

Mister Fister wrote: You'll have the engineers who are building the cars and programming the computers for the fastest possible laps, and then you'll have the luddites who will actually drive the cars, as said before, just like horse racing.

This is interesting. Does it require two classes at an event? (like street tire vs race tire) or does it required two totally different events?

And, how do you keep the engineers out of the 'luddite' classes?

One thing to keep in mind: while autonomous vehicles are quickly becoming a reality in the "western" nations, in many other areas of the world current infrastructure is incapable of supporting them and due to geographical or economic concerns autonomous vehicles will not be implemented for a very long time, if they ever are at all.

The silver lining to that is that someone, somewhere will conceivably be making traditional motor vehicles for every day use well into the future. So there will always be SOMETHING around to hoon. Maybe the EPA/DOT will ease up on import restrictions when it's not feasible to drive a traditional motor vehicle in autonomous traffic...

I think completely autonomous is a little further off than the clickbait articles claim. But, it does seem to be coming. At first it will be more like advanced cruise control for the interstate. Long haul truckers becoming a thing of the past will likely be the real first societal impact. That job has already been targeted as low hanging and very economical fruit.

When cars become completely autonomous, I think they will sell like hotcakes. People in general don't want to drive. Young boys don't even bother to get a drivers license now. When I was a kid, you were standing at the DMV on your 15th birthday more excited than you have ever been. Yes, 15 in SC back then. When magazines start writing articles about a 16 or 17 year old that actually likes cars.... WHAT? All 17 year olds liked cars when I grew up. Except for that one nerd, I think he started Microsoft or Apple or something.

Shortly after that, the world will be a paradise. People will be able to do whatever they want all the time........play with their phones!

I used to dread the day. However, the more I drive around town the more I want the texting, speeding (physically and chemically), swerving, tailgating, soccer Mom's to have it.

Eventually, it will lead to race cars being a country club or tow your car thing. That is still a long way off. For motorsports, if there is no driver, there is no real race. It will happen as a novelty but be so boring it will die out, like watching someone else play a video game.

Avalanche325 wrote: All 17 year olds liked cars when I grew up. Except for that one nerd, I think he started Microsoft or Apple or something.

Bill Gates loves cars, and has a record of driving them way too fast on public roads when he was younger.