Hybrid repeat buyers

mguar wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: You won't find a hybrid with a bad battery or engine.. I called around last summer to various dealerships in an attempt to find anyone who's replaced the battery.. Eventually wound up calling Ford central parts.. Every battery replaced to that point had been damaged in an accident and not under the factory warranty. I addition the load on an engine with supplemental electric drive is a tiny fraction of the load on a normal engine.. That's why recommended oil change interval goes up to 10,000 miles from 7500 Plus brake linings wear at less than 1/2 the rate normal linings do due to regenerative braking.. Oh and Batteries for Hybrids are not all that expensive should they need replacement they only weigh 125 pounds in a Ford Focus and 150 pounds in the Ford SUV Hybrid, the Escape..

I have seen a few Insights for sale on Craigslist with bad batteries.

e_pie wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

e_pie wrote: The only hybrid worth a damn IMO is the first gen Insight. It was top to bottom designed to get good gas mileage, and little else. The aerodynamics, the weight (1850lbs!), the engine, the tires, the gearing, everything. Every other hybrid is just a normal car with a stupid engine stuffed in it by comparison.

I want one with a dead battery or engine and throw away the hybrid stuff and stick a D16 in it.

Why a D16? It'd only be a whopping 25hp gain and probably not that much better gas mileage over a K20 swap, which would be a 100+hp gain and still get 40-45mpg.

I like D-series and I would add a turbo.

Man cannot live on smug alone or something like that

I suppose that's why you included 3 OTHER sentences in your post, eh?

Couple with the boring to drive and doesn't really get the advertised mileage, there really isn't any reason to buy another one

You'll have to be more specific. Which car, and why is it boring, and what mileage are you getting driving it under what conditions? I havent driven near as many of the available hybrids as id like to, but i havent found one boring yet. As far as getting the advertised mileage, here's the way i see it. Hybrids arent really any MORE prone to getting worse mileage than they are rated at than ICE-only vehicles. In fact, if you surveyed the driving populace in general youd find a MAJOR proportion of people getting way less than their vehicle's epa rating. One upside of hybrids is that if you drive them just so, you can MAJORLY surpass their epa ratings. Im talking 10, 20, sometimes 30 effing mpg MORE than what they are rated at. That's extremely rare to impossible in the non-hybrid world.

I'm guessing most of the people jumped in before doing the math and are now figuring out that it may not have been worth it to them.

Congratulations, you've just described buying ANY new car. The main problem with this whole 'payoff period' thing is that overlooks the elephant in the room: The fact that buying ANY car new is a guaranteed losing fight. It never ceases to amaze me how many people on THIS forum, of all forums, still consider buying new cars and then try to parse the financial wisdom of this or that aspect of it, all to end up with, at best, a highly polished turd of a financial decision. Sorry, but penny-wise and pound-foolish people dont have any cred with me on financial issues. All of that 'payoff period is impractically long' crap goes away in the used market. My hybrid has already recouped 75%+ of its purchase price in gas savings after only two years, and that's compared to a car that ALREADY got 30+mpg! But of course noone is tracking used car sales..

Anyway, i'll definitely be buying another hybrid. Actually, if you count the electric drivetrain parts ive bought to BUILD another hybrid, i've sort of already done it.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Ok well my first sentence still stands. Would you cross-shop a Mercedes and a Volt?

Well, no, and again, that's the point. They're different. Can a Mercedes do things a Volt can't? Sure. Can a Volt do things a Mercedes can't? Sure.

It's like a Mercedes vs. a really nice truck. Same money, different bag of "can do". That's all I'm saying- people spend Volt money, and much, much more on cars. You could easily spend double Volt money on a Mercedes and no one will ask how long it will take to pay for itself. That argument is creating an artificial bar that only the hybrids have to meet. And that's just the Volt - the little Prius costs less than the average new car. How do you figure it takes any time at all for it to start saving money? That makes no sense.

That's all. My only point- they save you money the day you get them vs. a car that cost the same and gets 2/3rds the mileage.

I don't own a hybrid and not likely to get one any time soon. I hate some of them. A hybrid SUV bragging on 22 MPG drives me nuts. I'm just saying that argument isn't a good one. How long does it take an H2 to pay for itself? Oh, it doesn't. Ever. Really, it's a back handed compliment to the hybrid. And it's nebulous. How long does it take to save how much for who? How far do they drive? How much will gas cost five years from now? For a plug in, it's even more suspect. Some people use almost no gas at all and the electric charge is much, much less expensive. What is the value of moving the emissions from a congested city? Or using domestic coal to make the electricity rather than imported oil? Etc., etc, etc. It's taking one small slice of hybrid, pulling some numbers out of thin air and concluding the entire class of vehicles is a complete waste of time. You could use the same kind of "logic" to explain why most of the cars most of us own are a waste of time.

Generally upper middle class people buy new electric cars and hybrids. And yes, they cross shop them with luxury makes. My wife decided she wanted a Prius over a Lexus RX.

A Prius or a Volt provides a completely different driving experience than a regular car. This is one of the things that appeals to people. Just like why Apple products appeal to people. People will pay a little extra for a new experience.

Tell most people here that you are going to add a supercharger to a basic new car. Tell them it will cut a second or so off the 0-60 time, but it will add weight and complexity and cost to the car. And it will subtract 5 mpg from the EPA ratings. Most of us either say "Sweet, I want it!" or "Glad they offer it, but it isn't worth it to me."

Tell people the same thing, but replace supercharger with electric motor and batteries and add 5 mpg instead of subtract it, and it becomes the worst idea on earth.

Take something relatively boring like a Camry. The hybrid has acceleration about halfway between the I4 and the V6. The cost is in between the two (but closer to the V6). And it has a combined mpg 13 higher than the I4. What's not to like?

The other thing is people assume the extra cost of a hybrid is only worth what it will save in gas. Most hybrids retain their value as well or better than their gas only counterparts. So, you recoup some of the initial cost when you resell the car.

Otto Maddox wrote: The other thing is people assume the extra cost of a hybrid is only worth what it will save in gas. Most hybrids retain their value as well or better than their gas only counterparts. So, you recoup some of the initial cost when you resell the car.

THIS! People have the same argument for gas vs diesel. Look at 10 year old Jettas and you'll find that the TDIs sell for $2k+ more than gas counterparts.

mguar wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: I worked for Ford at the time not for Honda.. So Maybe Fords vastly improved reliability includes a better hybrid than Honda? .. I do know several months that I was with Ford Honda scored under Ford in the JD Powell reports. .

Also the Insight was a very early hybrid. I also wonder if it is actually a battery or something else wrong with the car.

mazdeuce wrote:

e_pie wrote: The only hybrid worth a damn IMO is the first gen Insight. It was top to bottom designed to get good gas mileage, and little else. The aerodynamics, the weight (1850lbs!), the engine, the tires, the gearing, everything. Every other hybrid is just a normal car with a stupid engine stuffed in it by comparison. They are even decently fun to drive, a lot like a CRX.

A guy in Houston autocrosses one in HS with sticky tires and everything. I got a ride along at the last event. It was basically awesome. He's a cool cat for running the car.

I'm fairly certain he got those sticky tires from me. Does he run with some black-painted Civic HX wheels?

I've seen that guy at autocrosses up here sometimes.

Finally got mine fixed up.

I've had it for about two weeks now and I'm really happy with it so far, but I knew it would need some work as it was totaled and really halfass repaired.

It was missing all of the front under tray bits, needed rear shocks, and a new front crash beam (which I'm happy to report took all of the impact.) didn't have RE92s, and some other miscellaneous stuff like fender alignment and whatnot.

With the proper tires and aero I gained a solid 10mpg and it doesn't struggle to go 80 any more.

GameboyRMH wrote: In 10 years the EV will be the most popular powertrain type for daily commuters. Any new ICE vehicles will be track-oriented versions of sports cars (don't be surprised to see electric sports cars - they accelerate HARD) and maybe semis & HD pickups. The hybrid will be a niche vehicle or totally extinct. Their only purpose is to make up for the short range of EVs, and the range is getting less and less short every day.

Went to Harrah's Auto Museum recently and looked at the 1912 Baker V Special Extension Coupe. It was the most advanced EV of its day.

It had a range of 80 to 100 miles, cost twice as much as a comparable ICE car and weighed too much. Sound familiar?

Batteries suck and they have sucked for a very long time. I hope there's some breakthrough, but I kind of doubt it. I think fuel cells have a better shot long term.

As for hybrids, I've only driven one (a brand new Prius C), and it was the worst car I've ever been in for doing the core stuff cars are supposed to do - go, stop, turn. It was also a lot of fun because it was so scary, weird, unpredictable and space-shippy.

I also drove a brand new Hyundai Accent, which was much better at going, stopping and turning, was bigger inside and 10 grand cheaper. Since we're only talking half a gallon of consumption per 100 miles (assuming 50 mpg vs the actual 39 I observed in the Prius C), I can't say I see the point. The Prius was more fun because it was so weird and it did have a nicer interior but - 10 large? Hell, you can get a much, much, much nicer Golf TDI for the same money and that thing is genuinely fun to drive.

Take something relatively boring like a Camry. The hybrid has acceleration about halfway between the I4 and the V6. The cost is in between the two (but closer to the V6). And it has a combined mpg 13 higher than the I4. What's not to like?

Well put.

Also, I take great amusement in my educated guess that a new camry hybrid is faster in a straight line and around a track than probably 80% of the cars owned by the members of this forum.

Vigo wrote:

Take something relatively boring like a Camry. The hybrid has acceleration about halfway between the I4 and the V6. The cost is in between the two (but closer to the V6). And it has a combined mpg 13 higher than the I4. What's not to like?

Well put. Also, I take great amusement in my educated guess that a new camry hybrid is faster in a straight line and around a track than probably 80% of the cars owned by the members of this forum.

Thirty grand for a mid sized car that gets an observed 30 mpg, is boring and goes to 60 in 7.3 seconds. Perhaps I'm missing the amazingness. Especially when the V6 is cheaper, gets an observed 25 mpg and goes to sixty in 5.8 seconds.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the really high efficiency hybrids (Prius/Prius C) seem to get most of their efficiency from simply being really weak. People were getting 50 mpg out of gutless gasoline cars with carbs in the 80s, why is it so ground breaking when we do the same thing now for twice the price with lots of high technology? Beyond that, why not just get a diesel?

Vigo Wrote: As far as getting the advertised mileage, here's the way i see it. Hybrids arent really any MORE prone to getting worse mileage than they are rated at than ICE-only vehicles. In fact, if you surveyed the driving populace in general youd find a MAJOR proportion of people getting way less than their vehicle's epa rating.

I've driven one hybrid, so feel free to tell me how I'm wrong, but I disagree with you here.

I consistently beat the EPA ratings in my cars because I'm a habitual hyper-miler. I coast to stop lights in hope they will turn green before I arrive (some days I go all the way across town without actually stopping), I operate the engine at high load and low rpm, I engine brake as much as possible, I leave enough room between me and the car in front that I can hold consistent speeds most of the time and I do the speed limit on the highway. I used to get a rock solid 40 mpg every time with my 88 Civic Sedan. It was rated at 33 mpg highway, 27 city.

It is impossible or difficult to do those things with a Prius C. I have no control over what speed the engine runs and therefore cannot keep it at the speeds where it is most efficient. I cannot select a gear and thus cannot control how much engine braking I'm going to get. The engine braking I do get is so powerful (from the regenerative stuff) that I can't coast up to stop lights. It's so weak I have to thrash it to get up to speed on the highway and borderline thrash it to maintain the speed limit. I achieved 40 mpg, according to the trip computer, over an hour of mixed driving. It was rated at 46 mpg highway and 53 city.

Maybe there's a trick to hypermiling one of these things, but I sure didn't find it.

Thirty grand for a mid sized car that gets an observed 30 mpg

= doing it wrong. The end. Plenty of people are getting 37-40.

I consistently beat the EPA ratings in my cars because I'm a habitual hyper-miler.

And you're using this to refute my assertion about the driving populace IN GENERAL? Those were my exact words..

It is impossible or difficult to do those things with a Prius C. I have no control over what speed the engine runs and therefore cannot keep it at the speeds where it is most efficient. I cannot select a gear and thus cannot control how much engine braking I'm going to get. The engine braking I do get is so powerful (from the regenerative stuff) that I can't coast up to stop lights. It's so weak I have to thrash it to get up to speed on the highway and borderline thrash it to maintain the speed limit.

Sounds like you need a hybrid with a manual, like my insight (or a civic, or a crz). And if you still dont feel like you have enough control, you can do the mod that gives you complete control of the electric assist/braking with a separate throttle, or a programmable one that just changes how it automatically assists/regens. Dont like how it auto stop starts? Change it. Other people are. If you dont like the lack of control of driving an automatic trans with drive by wire, dont buy one, but dont blame those extremely common traits on the coincidence of that car being a hybrid. Manual hybrids do exist and address some of that. And since you're complaining about the power in a C, maybe you'd like to try a Camry Hybrid? Or do you want the $19k hybrid to also be faster than anything else toyota sells at that price (which the camry is)? CRZ starts at 19k as well and gives you a manual and all the associated control, as well as being MAJORLY faster than the prius C. So is it just a bad hybrid, or just the wrong hybrid for your preferences?

I wont argue with the bad integration and lack of driver control with regen braking.. That seems to be a common complaint. Honestly, the only thing about regen braking that ever bothered me with my hybrid was that it frequently varied how much current it was trying to get from regen without somehow telling me why, but it was never TOO much, and if it was, i could always upshift to lessen it's braking power, or put it in neutral. I have driven a couple of non-C prii (i forget what they call that one now) and the regen didnt immediately bother me.

DaveEstey wrote: In reply to forzav12: Even at that rate it will take them 15 years to make up the price differential though. The Volt is the worst of the lot when it comes to paying itself off with efficiency. I think the Prius c should have the quickest profit time thanks to being priced around $19k.

Not true. The Volt street price(as determined by two actual buyers-not speculation) was essentially the same as the Prius. Both of the former Toyota owners much preferred the Volt and are very happy with them. Many days they don't use any gas and their real world mileage is over 70mpg. Both are women and like the fact that they rarely have to deal with gas stations. I've driven the Volt for a number of miles-they drive well, are comfortable, have a number of great features, a quality audio system, OnStar, a quiet ride and make excellent daily drivers. The battery pack is way understressed and they have a very advanced system that cools/heats it as needed so it should last a long time. No penalty at all to drive the Volt-unlike miserable drives like the Prius C and the Leaf.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

fast_eddie_72 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: In reply to dculberson: They arent cross shopping a volt and a mercedes either. once you remove the electric gadgetry the volt is the most expensive car in it's class.

It's class is different. If you remove the electric gadgetry it's not the same car. You took away it's party trick. We of all people should understand that there's a lot more to a car than numbers like that can explain. I mean, why is a Corvette so expensive? By the numbers, I can fit more people in a Honda Fit and get better mileage. But, uh, it's not the same. Take away the Corvette's powerful engine and it's the most over-priced American car made.

Ok well my first sentence still stands. Would you cross-shop a Mercedes and a Volt?

Not even remotely comparatively priced-but besides that, sure why not? One of the folks I know that purchased a Volt previously drove a Jaguar and a Lexus(in addition to the Prius she traded for the Volt). She couldn't be happier.

Vigo wrote:

Thirty grand for a mid sized car that gets an observed 30 mpg

A. = doing it wrong. The end. Plenty of people are getting 37-40.

I consistently beat the EPA ratings in my cars because I'm a habitual hyper-miler.

B. And you're using this to refute my assertion about the driving populace IN GENERAL? Those were my exact words..

It is impossible or difficult to do those things with a Prius C. I have no control over what speed the engine runs and therefore cannot keep it at the speeds where it is most efficient. I cannot select a gear and thus cannot control how much engine braking I'm going to get. The engine braking I do get is so powerful (from the regenerative stuff) that I can't coast up to stop lights. It's so weak I have to thrash it to get up to speed on the highway and borderline thrash it to maintain the speed limit.

C. Sounds like you need a hybrid with a manual, like my insight (or a civic, or a crz). D. And if you still dont feel like you have enough control, you can do the mod that gives you complete control of the electric assist/braking with a separate throttle, or a programmable one that just changes how it automatically assists/regens. Dont like how it auto stop starts? Change it. Other people are. E. If you dont like the lack of control of driving an automatic trans with drive by wire, dont buy one, but dont blame those extremely common traits on the coincidence of that car being a hybrid. Manual hybrids do exist and address some of that. F. And since you're complaining about the power in a C, maybe you'd like to try a Camry Hybrid? Or do you want the $19k hybrid to also be faster than anything else toyota sells at that price (which the camry is)? CRZ starts at 19k as well and gives you a manual and all the associated control, as well as being MAJORLY faster than the prius C. So is it just a bad hybrid, or just the wrong hybrid for your preferences? G. I wont argue with the bad integration and lack of driver control with regen braking.. That seems to be a common complaint. Honestly, the only thing about regen braking that ever bothered me with my hybrid was that it frequently varied how much current it was trying to get from regen without somehow telling me why, but it was never TOO much, and if it was, i could always upshift to lessen it's braking power, or put it in neutral. I have driven a couple of non-C prii (i forget what they call that one now) and the regen didnt immediately bother me.

First of all, I liked the Prius C. I've never laughed so hard driving, and I mean that in a good way. It was so novel and it was exciting in the same slow but fun anyway fashion that driving a 1930s sports car must be. If I lived in a very crowded city and never had to deal with highways, speeds above 50 mph or twisty roads, I might buy one.

However, I justify liking the Prius C in the same way I justify liking a Lamborghini Diablo. It's impractical, it's overpriced, it's objectively horrible and it's barely competent as a mode of transportation but it's so novel, so weird and fun I don't care. That's pretty much the exact opposite of what I expected to feel when I test drove a member of the Prius family.

A. Observed vs. observed. Car and Driver usually "does it wrong." I'm sure you can do better in both.

B. Nope, just saying it's not that hard to beat the EPA in a normal car without driving super slow. Not sure how you do it in a Prius C, which again, is my only experience with hybrids.

C. Or even just anything that's not a CVT. CVT = very difficult to hypermile not to mention generally awful. This isn't just a hybrid thing.

D. Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you really suggesting I should effectively "Megasquirt" a brand new car?

E. Once again, this is mostly CVT. Any hybrid is going to shuffle between electric and gasoline based on battery capacity, charge level and throttle inputs. By its nature, it will be less predictable. That said, I suspect a mild hybrid would be much easier to integrate.

F. The Prius C is slow, but that wasn't the problem. I guess I fail to see what the hybrid drive train is adding. We had gutless gasoline fueled cars getting 50 mpg back in the 80s. How are the new hybrids an improvement on that?

Let me state it another way. The 1.5 liter Atkinson cycle engine in the Prius C makes 73 hp by itself. What kind of fuel economy would that get if you kept the aero tweeks and low rolling resistance tires of the Prius C and got rid of 400 lbs of hybrid stuff and just used the gas engine? The non aero maximized, non low rolling resistance normal Yaris with 106 hp gets 38 mpg. Our hybrid minus the hybrid would have to be mid 40s at least and wouldn't be that far off in power to weight ratios. Same thing with the CRZ. It's hard to think a 113 hp car shaped like a CRZ that weighed 2400 lbs wouldn't be able to manage mid to high thirties fuel economy.

Maybe I'm wrong, but with the Prius/CRZ/Insight/Prius C it seems like the batteries and engines boost efficiency just slightly more than enough to counteract the extra weight.

The lighter the car, the more this is the case. In my opinion, hybrid buses make a ton of sense. Hybrid trucks and SUVs, if you must have a truck or SUV, make sense because the batteries and motors add such a small percentage of weight to the vehicle overall. But with small cars, it seems like a case of severely diminishing returns on investment.

G. To be fair, the Prius C uses the original Prius' hardware with new computer controls. Nobody I've talked to has had similar experiences in a normal Prius.

forzav12 wrote:

DaveEstey wrote: In reply to forzav12: Even at that rate it will take them 15 years to make up the price differential though. The Volt is the worst of the lot when it comes to paying itself off with efficiency. I think the Prius c should have the quickest profit time thanks to being priced around $19k.

Not true. The Volt street price(as determined by two actual buyers-not speculation) was essentially the same as the Prius. Both of the former Toyota owners much preferred the Volt and are very happy with them. Many days they don't use any gas and their real world mileage is over 70mpg. Both are women and like the fact that they rarely have to deal with gas stations. I've driven the Volt for a number of miles-they drive well, are comfortable, have a number of great features, a quality audio system, OnStar, a quiet ride and make excellent daily drivers. The battery pack is way understressed and they have a very advanced system that cools/heats it as needed so it should last a long time. No penalty at all to drive the Volt-unlike miserable drives like the Prius C and the Leaf.

I imagine a car where all the power train is electric, whether a Leaf or a Volt, would make a very nice luxury car. When I was driving the Prius C I remember wishing on several occasions that I could just have electric or just have gasoline without mixing the two.

As usual i completely agree with Forza regarding the Volt.

Daewooofdeath,

I really agree with the whole mindset behind analogizing with an 80y/o sports car. My driving experience/enjoyment is based heavily on novelty, and i can usually find something that i like about every car, even if it's not 'how it drives' overall. But, i DO judge cars a little more harshly if they set expectations in various ways that they fail to meet. For example, i just picked up a modded eclipse with a very loud exhaust in a trade. It sets expectations of speed that it doesnt meet. It's not slow. If i drove a prius C and it was as fast as this eclipse i would be tickled, so that's all relative to expectations based on looks, noise, etc.

In the same way, you got 40mpg in a car rated 50, and that's a failure. There may be extenuating circumstances, but that's a sore area to have to make excuses in because mpg is the car's MAIN selling point.

As for pojnt D, i was referring to my 11y/o first gen insight. Such things may also be possible with the newer model, but i havent read into that.

By its nature, it will be less predictable. That said, I suspect a mild hybrid would be much easier to integrate.

That's true. Integration has always been the big thing that the OEMs didnt do well enough in hybrids, IMO. My old insight is pretty badly integrated (although better than some newer stuff), and that has NOTHING to do with the hardware. Honestly, what that car, and MOST hybrids need, is just a lot more work into the software.

The Prius C is slow, but that wasn't the problem. I guess I fail to see what the hybrid drive train is adding. We had gutless gasoline fueled cars getting 50 mpg back in the 80s. How are the new hybrids an improvement on that?

Interestingly, i just picked up an 85 CRX HF and already own a 2001 insight, and these cars are SUPREMELY suited to that question.

The newer car is more aerodynamic, faster, more comfortable, more well-thought-out ( i know that is vague), better ergonomics (i.e. if a radio is like 6"+ outside the normal reach of your arm, your designers are fuggin idiots), easier to drive, handles better, is safer, and has significantly more equipment for only a small bump in weight.

The insight weighs only ~80 lbs more than the CRX, and for that 80 lbs i get power windows, power locks, power mirrors, air conditioning, power steering, 2 airbags, an abs system, computers and wiring to run my super-accurate fuel-delivery system, an electric motor that DOUBLES my torque off idle...

And OH YEAH, an 80+lb battery pack. So, you can see what you're getting with new technology VERY clearly in that case.

Anywho, you COULD take the actual motor and batteries out of most hybrids and get the same highway fuel economy (but not significantly better, the weight is not enough to make much difference there), BUT, the cars would be almost intolerable to drive. What the electric stuff does basically comes down to 2 things.. being able to move AT ALL without the gas engine, and ACCELERATION!

Electric motors VASTLY improve the acceleration and part-throttle drivability of 50mpg cars.

The mileage didn't disappoint me for two reasons, I didn't think the car would actually do 53 mpg and, in consumption terms, 40 mpg vs 50 mpg is almost trivial. That's two dollars difference in a 100 mile trip. I'd gladly pay two dollars per hundred miles in order to drive something nice.

I'm shocked that the Civic HF was slower than the Insight. I thought Insights were some of the slowest cars ever made. I'm also surprised you say it handles better - the CRX is something of a handling highwater mark.

The Insight isn't as slow as you would think, it has about the same power to weight as a CRX Si. It's by no means fast but it's more than enough to get out of its own way, and it'll do 80 down the highway all day long while getting 55-60mpg.

85hp goes a long way when you have aero and 1850lbs on your side.

If you like the CRX you will like the Insight, my Insight reminds me so much of my old 89 Si, it's just a great all around car.

DaewooOfDeath wrote: The mileage didn't disappoint me for two reasons, I didn't think the car would actually do 53 mpg and, in consumption terms, 40 mpg vs 50 mpg is almost trivial. That's two dollars difference in a 100 mile trip. I'd gladly pay two dollars per hundred miles in order to drive something nice. I'm shocked that the Civic HF was slower than the Insight. I thought Insights were some of the slowest cars ever made. I'm also surprised you say it handles better - the CRX is something of a handling highwater mark.

But you're not getting 50 mpg in the city and the Hybrid is. You don't buy a hybrid for the highway mileage, you buy one for the city mileage.

In reply to DaveEstey:

Yeah, it is almost like you should buy the car best suited for your intended use.

My wife has a daily commute through hilly city streets in traffic. Her Pilot gets around 15-16 MPG doing this. She wanted something much smaller, so we thought of something like an Accord or a TSX. But in those, she'd still probably be getting around 22-24 MPG for her commute. If she went and got a full on economy car like a Fit (and there is no way she would), she probably still couldn't hit 30 MPG, particularly since she won't buy a daily driver with a manual tranny. A nicely optioned Prius is priced similarly to the other cars she actually considered, but it gets 50 MPG in the city. And she thinks they are cute. And she likes all the little gadgets it comes with.