STM317
PowerDork
7/13/23 1:30 p.m.
In reply to CrashDummy :
I think you're probably correct about the benefits and drawbacks of the Bolt vs the GTI. I'd bet that a Bolt with sticky tires and a sway bar upgrade could be in the GTI's neighborhood in an autocross, but trackdays are not what any production EV is good at right now (outside of perhaps the Porsche Taycan). I mentioned the Bolt because it's much closer to a GTI in size, price, driveline configuration and performance than this N will be.
The Ioniq 5 looks like a small hatch, but that's a styling trick thanks to big wheels and a huge wheelbase. In reality, the Ioniq 5 measures within an inch or so of a Honda C-RV or Toyota Rav-4 if they were lowered just a bit. So comparing this Ioniq 5 N to a GTI is comparing a 600hp AWD crossover to a small, 250hp, FWD sport hatch.
In reply to STM317 :
Last fall we had a Bolt at Gingerman for TT for the local scca. Guy was seasoned, normally drove a 911 IIRC, but decided to go have fun with it. Falken 660's and a sway bar IIRC were his upgrades and it was dogE36 M3 slow. My Rio, which is no where near a GTI (check it against Tom's GTI at one lap) and was beating him by 7-9 seconds per lap, despite our top speeds going into 11 being very similar. The mass, height and lack of tuning on the suspension killed it in the corners.
STM317 said:
In reply to CrashDummy :
I think you're probably correct about the benefits and drawbacks of the Bolt vs the GTI. I'd bet that a Bolt with sticky tires and a sway bar upgrade could be in the GTI's neighborhood in an autocross, but trackdays are not what any production EV is good at right now (outside of perhaps the Porsche Taycan). I mentioned the Bolt because it's much closer to a GTI in size, price, driveline configuration and performance than this N will be.
The Ioniq 5 looks like a small hatch, but that's a styling trick thanks to big wheels and a huge wheelbase. In reality, the Ioniq 5 measures within an inch or so of a Honda C-RV or Toyota Rav-4 if they were lowered just a bit. So comparing this Ioniq 5 N to a GTI is comparing a 600hp AWD crossover to a small, 250hp, FWD sport hatch.
That's fair. I didn't realize this thing is so big. The I-5-N seems like a step in the right direction but it's still not the "Hot Hatch EV" that I want as a replacement for my Mazdaspeed3.
Keith Tanner said:
CrashDummy said:
Keith Tanner said:
CrashDummy said:
Seems really cool and it sounds like most of the silly things can be shut off. Where do we think this thing ends up at for MSRP? I'd love to get a "hot-hatch" EV but I need the pricing to come down such that I can cross shop it with a GTI. Any theories on when we'll see something like that?
Total cost of ownership or initial purchase price?
This is probably more of a Golf R competitor than a GTi competitor.
Initial purchase price is easier to compare but I'm open to a total cost of ownership comparison. I know people like to say "you'll save $X on gas and oil changes" but I think a lot of that is canceled out by the increased sales tax, increased insurance premiums, and annual property tax bill. If total cost of ownership on this is actually on par with a Golf R I'm very interested.
Property tax and sales tax increases? That's gotta be state-specific. I did not shop insurance premiums specifically but the EV doesn't seem out of line for a new car.
The only EV-related increase in costs we've seen is a $50 surcharge on our registration to compensate for the fact that we're not paying into the gas tax. That's perfectly reasonable, and it's roughly equivalent to 9000 miles/year on a 40 mpg car.
The Bolt is indeed going away, at least for a while. But don't discount what a really low CoG and instant throttle response can do around cones. Maybe go for a drive in one.
Obviously this will vary on usage and location but I tried to do some rough numbers for a 5 year/60k mile ownership window. I assuemd full coverage insurance on a $60k car is more than on a $45k car just due to the increased repalcement cost. The Golf will use up brakes but I imagine the I5N will be heavier and use tires more quickly so that's probably a wash.
Golf R: $45k purchase price + 6% sales tax ($2.7k) + insurance ($1.2k * 5 years = $6k) + gas (60,000 miles/25mpg*3.50=$8.4k) + maintenance (say $150/10,000 miles for oil and filters=$.9k) + property tax (.02*40,000*5=$4k)=$67,000.
I5N: $60k purchase price (optomistic guess) + 6% sales tax ($3.6k) + insurance ($1.4 * 5 years = $7.5k) + electricity (60,000miles/4mpkwh*.025=$3.7k) + property tax (.02*55,000*5=$5.5k)=$80k.
Now the I5N might be more car and worth the extra $2,500 per year, but even if the MSRP comes in at $60k I don't see the total ownership cost as being on par with the GolfR. Interestingly, it would start to get fairly close if this car is elligible for the $7,500 tax rebate.
Good logic. I think you're underestimating the maintenance cost for the Golf - over 60k miles, you're going to be changing trans fluid and diff fluid at least once and will be close to a second, and that's $400 for the pair alone. But it's not enough to change the numbers dramatically.
kanaric
SuperDork
7/13/23 4:43 p.m.
I like how this car looks, I wish they would make a coupe with this design language.
I also think Hyundai picked an excellent performance division color. Sky blue looks great on their cars.
bobzilla said:
In reply to STM317 :
Last fall we had a Bolt at Gingerman for TT for the local scca. Guy was seasoned, normally drove a 911 IIRC, but decided to go have fun with it. Falken 660's and a sway bar IIRC were his upgrades and it was dogE36 M3 slow. My Rio, which is no where near a GTI (check it against Tom's GTI at one lap) and was beating him by 7-9 seconds per lap, despite our top speeds going into 11 being very similar. The mass, height and lack of tuning on the suspension killed it in the corners.
Interesting. Shocking, actually. I'd think that the low positioning of the batteries would offset the overall height. Bolt's are resonably quick cars.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:
bobzilla said:
In reply to STM317 :
Last fall we had a Bolt at Gingerman for TT for the local scca. Guy was seasoned, normally drove a 911 IIRC, but decided to go have fun with it. Falken 660's and a sway bar IIRC were his upgrades and it was dogE36 M3 slow. My Rio, which is no where near a GTI (check it against Tom's GTI at one lap) and was beating him by 7-9 seconds per lap, despite our top speeds going into 11 being very similar. The mass, height and lack of tuning on the suspension killed it in the corners.
Interesting. Shocking, actually. I'd think that the low positioning of the batteries would offset the overall height. Bolt's are resonably quick cars.
So he would pull me out of 10 at gingerman but topped out around 92 before 11. Rio bounces off the limiter at the same spot at 95. That and he only ran 3 of his 5 sessions per day because not enough juice.
I'm not in a position to buy anything in the targeted price range, but I love the N!
Can you turn off the DCT emulation, or is that always-on?
Yeah I've seen an I5 in person, they are HUGE! It looks like a GTI sized hatch in pictures, but are positively massive in real life. That's the only bummer for me as I love the way they look.
I would not be surprised if this N version weighs 4800lbs.
I haven't had a chance to watch it yet but Jonny Smith featured the Ioniq 5 N in the latest episode of The Late Brake Show.
CyberEric said:
Yeah I've seen an I5 in person, they are HUGE! It looks like a GTI sized hatch in pictures, but are positively massive in real life. That's the only bummer for me as I love the way they look.
I would not be surprised if this N version weighs 4800lbs.
Speaking of size, I was caught off guard by the size of our new Ioniq 6. When we got home with it and pulled it into the garage my wife uses, it *barely* fit - like ~3 inches in the front to the bikes hanging there and in the back to the garage door. Having wedged my 2012 X5 in that garage a few times, I looked up the overall length of each.
Quite surprisingly, they are identical - both are 191.1". As you might then assume, the legroom in the I6 is amazing.
STM317
PowerDork
7/15/23 9:01 a.m.
dyintorace said:
CyberEric said:
Yeah I've seen an I5 in person, they are HUGE! It looks like a GTI sized hatch in pictures, but are positively massive in real life. That's the only bummer for me as I love the way they look.
I would not be surprised if this N version weighs 4800lbs.
Speaking of size, I was caught off guard by the size of our new Ioniq 6. When we got home with it and pulled it into the garage my wife uses, it *barely* fit - like ~3 inches in the front to the bikes hanging there and in the back to the garage door. Having wedged my 2012 X5 in that garage a few times, I looked up the overall length of each.
Quite surprisingly, they are identical - both are 191.1". As you might then assume, the legroom in the I6 is amazing.
The Ioniq 5 wheelbase (118.1") is 4 inches longer than the wheelbase of their large, 3 row Palisade SUV (114.2").
kb58
UltraDork
7/15/23 9:38 a.m.
Overall car length is becoming a buying factor. Our 1980's garage doesn't fit many newer cars, which seem to be averaging around 180-190" long. Our departed Jag F-Type R was 176" and fit okay, and after a long search, we chose a Mazda CX-30, at 173". Most other contenders dropped off the list specifically for length.
In reply to kb58 :
We built the garage deep enough for the ccsb Sierra. If cars get more than 19' long I will just give up.
In reply to bobzilla :
Damn modern cars being long :)
They're only as long as you buy, just like they've always been :)
I was thinking that other than the badge, this N is more of a BMW competitor than a Golf. I'm not that plugged into the BMW range, but I'll bet they have a SUV/CUV of similar dimensions with sporting pretensions.
Keith Tanner said:
In reply to bobzilla :
Damn modern cars being long :)
They're only as long as you buy, just like they've always been :)
I was thinking that other than the badge, this N is more of a BMW competitor than a Golf. I'm not that plugged into the BMW range, but I'll bet they have a SUV/CUV of similar dimensions with sporting pretensions.
Well the bmw I'd M60 starts at $111,000 and has a 296 mile range. It's also been blessed with bmw's worse grille in history.
One of the Ionic 5 N cars went up the hill at Goodwood this morning. It did a lot of smoky burnouts along the way.
