I guess it's "what car" time again...

Sorry, another of those.

Here's the situation - in order to get to work, I have to go over a pass that's around 7300' high. In the Sierra Nevada, so they get the odd snow flake in winter.

Summer commuting is covered by motorbike (if I get the license sorted out ASAP) and our 'vette. Winter commuting, not so much.

My original thoughts were to get an older 4x4 pickup truck but I haven't found one that I like driving so far. I'm going to look at a '73 Ford Highboy tomorrow, maybe that's the one but I'm not convinced. Essentially the idea so far was get something useful to haul stuff that's got 4WD, but I'm beginning to wonder if I should get something I like instead and use U-Haul for the useful stuff.

Wife's got a Jeep Cherokee that's OK, but not "my thing" either. Although I think I could live with one for winter duties if the things weren't so stupidly expensive here.

So, the requirements are:

• Needs to be 4WD or otherwise extremely capable in the snow
• Decent heater wouldn't go amiss
• Reasonably fun to drive
• Less that $4k, I don't want to finance something, nor do I want to dig into my emergency fund.
• I don't have anything that I can take on trackdays/HPDE at the moment, so cheaper is better as that'll leave me additional money for a track car

So far the thoughts were:

• Something Subaru-ish, but I've got bad experience with autotragic transmission-eating ones. An SVX would be nice but around here they tend to be over budget
• Something Audi-like, but when I was a student I used to work as a driver for a leasing company and I never got along with the Audis that are now in my budget. Used to have an A8 for a little while but the thoughts of a broken autotragic on these scares me
• BMW 325ix, but they're hard to find out here. Most of the ones I've found are East of the Mississippi.
• Stop being a wimp and buy a truck

So, any further suggestions?

Maybe a 1st gen Legacy turbo?

Subaru autos are pretty reliable, generally. The only one ive ever had to take out and fix was just a broken pump shaft, not a 'broken tranny'.

How is the cherokee expensive if you already own it?

Also, keep in mind that you dont need a truck to move large objects. You only need a hitch and a trailer. You can get a trailer the size of a truck bed for only a few hundred bucks, and pretty much anything can tow a few thousand lbs. Although, i wouldnt do with the subaru tranny, oddly enough.

Ive got some cars with hitches, a dolly, a 4x8 trailer, and no truck. In the rare instances that ive needed a bigger trailer, i borrowed one. In the rare instanced that i needed a bigger tow vehicle, i borrowed one. I picked up my 4x8 trailer for $90 + a little mechanical work.

AMC Eagle.

This is just me, based on my experience. I think you're thinking right. I live in Colorado and drive an MR2 year round. Blizzaks in the winter. Engine over drive wheels so it goes. Low mass, so it stops.

I wouldn't get a truck if you want to do well in snow. No weight in the back and too heavy to stop well. Heavy vehicles aren't great in snow. Momentum = Mass x Velocity. My wife has a 4Runner. Very good at go in snow, not so much at stop, even with ABS. Again Blizzaks make an astonishing difference. Tires are everything in snow. The MR2 is still much better unless the snow is too deep for it to get over. We only get that two or three times a year. I drive slow in the snow, but I never have any trouble.

Subaru or Audi are awesome in snow and give a little more ground clerance without too much extra weight. But you don't really need 4WD as much as you need the right tires. 4WD only works to get you going. All cars have 4 wheel brakes. FWD works just as well, sometimes better- less mass to stop. And it's good if you can't get going too easily. Reminds you that it's slick and you have to turn and stop too. Keeps you from getting cocky.

Did I mention that the single most important thing is tires?

All just my observations and opinion. Others will disagree.

I agree on tyres and ability. This winter I found myself saabless and running a sumer tyre clad BMW through the worst snow we had in 10 years.

Aside from trouble getting going.. I did pretty good. The LSD helped a lot.

That said.. 7300feet is pretty high and I would rather the ability of AWD to help when trying to get up that high. I would definetly look into the Subies and their variants (saabaru) Audi's, VW (4 motion) and even a 4matic merc if you can get a decent one

Civic AWD but price not given.
http://reno.craigslist.org/cto/1875643905.html

Factoring in the altitude I'd think something turbocharged is the way to go. Subarus and Audis are the obvious choices, but there are others. Especially if you are willing to travel as it sounds like your market is too pricey. A 323GTX would fit the bill. If you go FWD with good tires there are a lot more options. A turbo Saab or Volvo can be great fun stock, more so if you mod them just a bit.

Have you thought about vans? Plenty of room to haul stuff and probably loads cheaper than a pickup. AWD Astros can even tow decently. AWD Caravans were sold for a bit too. Did Chrysler ever make a turbo AWD minivan?

The Subaru's are pretty unstoppable in snow. Our outback never had a problem in the mountains out west. Manuals are pretty easy to find.

Don't you have a 911 with an engine on the rear wheels? Put on a set of studded Nokian Hakkapelittas and play Pauli Toivonen. I don't think they use salt or mag chloride up there, only gravel. Make sure to get a Cibie light bar to complete the look.

Damn, I want to move back to snow country now!

BTW, having switched from a Cherokee to the Outback at the time, I don't recommend trucks if snow driving is your first concern. Night and freakin' day!

Vigo wrote: Subaru autos are pretty reliable, generally. The only one ive ever had to take out and fix was just a broken pump shaft, not a 'broken tranny'.

I've had a Legacy twin-turbo that lunched its center diff (not uncommon with these) and that's not a cheap repair. SVXs run the same transmission IIRC and that also has a reputation for needing fairly frequent repairs/replacement.

Vigo wrote: How is the cherokee expensive if you already own it?

It's the wife's, and she needs something to get to work, too. If I was going to buy one for myself here, I'd have to pay snow country prices or hope I can find a cheaper one in the Bay Area and get there before it gets sold.

Vigo wrote: Also, keep in mind that you dont need a truck to move large objects. You only need a hitch and a trailer. You can get a trailer the size of a truck bed for only a few hundred bucks, and pretty much anything can tow a few thousand lbs. Although, i wouldnt do with the subaru tranny, oddly enough.

Heh. That's what we've been doing so far, actually.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: This is just me, based on my experience. I think you're thinking right. I live in Colorado and drive an MR2 year round. Blizzaks in the winter. Engine over drive wheels so it goes. Low mass, so it stops.

Funnily enough, I've just contacted someone regarding their Mk1 MR2...

Junkyard_Dog wrote: Factoring in the altitude I'd think something turbocharged is the way to go. Subarus and Audis are the obvious choices, but there are others. Especially if you are willing to travel as it sounds like your market is too pricey. A 323GTX would fit the bill. If you go FWD with good tires there are a lot more options. A turbo Saab or Volvo can be great fun stock, more so if you mod them just a bit.

The market here isn't that pricey, at least compared to Vegas (Cherokees are pretty much the exception). The problem is that there isn't that much choice up here, combined with the usual fantasy land descriptions on CL.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: Have you thought about vans? Plenty of room to haul stuff and probably loads cheaper than a pickup. AWD Astros can even tow decently. AWD Caravans were sold for a bit too. Did Chrysler ever make a turbo AWD minivan?

The only van that I'd be allowed to bring home without having to sleep in it would be a VW camper. My wife is very tolerant of my automotive habit but draws the line at mom vans...

Jeff wrote: The Subaru's are pretty unstoppable in snow. Our outback never had a problem in the mountains out west. Manuals are pretty easy to find.

Haven't seen many of those but I might have to extend the search area. One advantage of Subarus is that there are a lot of them about so finding a mechanic to do some of the bigger jobs should be reasonably easy.

Jeff wrote: Don't you have a 911 with an engine on the rear wheels? Put on a set of studded Nokian Hakkapelittas and play Pauli Toivonen. I don't think they use salt or mag chloride up there, only gravel. Make sure to get a Cibie light bar to complete the look.

Well, the 911 is back in the UK as it hasn't reached the age yet that it would need to reach so I could import it easily. They mainly use gravel up here but according to the car guys at work, some salt is being used again recently. Then again, I do know where the self-service car washes are in town.

Jeff wrote: BTW, having switched from a Cherokee to the Outback at the time, I don't recommend trucks if snow driving is your first concern. Night and freakin' day!

Thanks, that seems to be the consensus by now..

My brother had a Subaru Outback Wagon (Legacy) with a 5-speed in Vail and then Boulder. It was practically designed for Colorado. I think it is the official state vehicle. He drove past many high-riding SUV's in ditches in that car.

How about an AWD DSM? Or maybe a Civic with a set of snow tires?

Ah, forgot to mention - I really, really, don't like FWD. Otherwise I'd shopping for another SAAB or an Integra.

DSM. Hmm. There's a thought...

BoxheadTim wrote: Ah, forgot to mention - I really, really, don't like FWD. Otherwise I'd shopping for another SAAB or an Integra. DSM. Hmm. There's a thought...

I'm with you on FWD, but a Civic can be made to be a lot of fun for cheap money. Just somthing to think about. DSM could be really cool. Tough to find one that isn't beat to hell, but I'm sure they're out there. Of course there's the crank walk issue. So tracking down a good one is the trick.

MR2s are wicked fun for low dough and dead nuts reliable. Also hard to find one that isn't beat up pretty well or "modded" badly. But they seem to bounce back pretty well if you spend a little time unfixing everything the 18 year old who owned it before you fixed. N/As easier to find in good shape than turbos and they're great E Stock autocross cars if you're into that. Costs very little to set them up for local competition.

Take care,

Ed

If you get a truck, get something you can tow with. You'll want a bigger radiator and oil cooler if you're in the mountains. Used truck prices have come down a lot around here in the last year since they had such a hard time selling new ones.

The F-250 I'm supposedly looking at tonight should be able to tow, but I don't know if it's got a factory tow package on it.

Looked at that F250, it was carefully photographed so the rusty side didn't show that badly, and it had "project" written all over it.

So much for trucks, I've really had it with looking at tons of vehicles I don't really like and find that most of them were overdescribed heaps (with one exception that got away before I could contact the owner).

So, I'm either looking for AWD fun cars or mid-engined RWD for extra spinniness on slippery surfaces.

How does a barely modded 1g DSM handle very occasional HPDE driving? I'm assuming that they aren't as understeery as an out-of-the-box Impreza?

99-01 Suzuki Grand Vitara, manual if you can find one.

Hard to find up here within my budget.

As I still haven't bought anything (Dual Sport bike doesn't count ), it's time to resurrect this thread...

I'm still suffering from indecisiveness when it comes to a winter car. Basically I'd like to avoid ending up with at least four cars (wife's Cherokee, my, err, our 'vette, and a winter car) and rather buy a fun car that's decent enough for winter driving and HPDE/autocrossing. I've also got four motorbikes and a full-time job so taking care of 8 vehicles might be a little much.

I've been looking for SUV-ish stuff out here, basically anything that's not a project is expensive and I don't like spending money (especially borrowed money if I don't want some run-down flea pit) on vehicles I don't like. So far the only vehicle that moderately tickled my interest was a Bronco project belonging to the father of a colleague's of my wife's - mechanically it's sorted but it's got no interior (that's in the storage shed and comes with it), needs paint if one wants to drive it in winter, a windshield, some other parts changing etc pp. Plus it's got a mental overbored 460 in it that most likely has a bigger thirst than the Australian Rugby Team on world tour.

So the Volvo 240 as winter beater made me think - back when I was a kid, winter driving basically meant throwing a couple of sacks of cement in the trunk, stick some winter tires on the car and put the chains in the trunk just in case. And we survived. Heck, I drove my E280 station wagon to my mum's in Switzerland last Christmas. It had winter tires on it, no chains and it still made it. We did take a cue from the natives and stayed where we were when they didn't want to take their (AWD) vehicles out, though.

All that makes me wonder - something comparatively light, RWD[1] with good snow tires (not all seasons), some chains in the back. Am I mental to even think about taking something like this over a 7200' pass on a daily basis (keeping in mind that there is a Cherokee for really bad weather)?

[1] Hachi Roku, MR2 Mk1, E30, something like that...

I hate Subarus, but will admit that if you're needing AWD, plentiful, and cheap, they're going to be hard to beat.

I'd hold out for an Audi, but that's just me.

Plenty of Subies and Audis here in the Bay Area. If you need any help viewing cars in this area, get in touch.

Part of the question is if I need AWD or if I can get away with a well balanced RWD car.

@amg_rx7, thanks for the offer, I'll probably get in touch once I've seen something I actually like...

Turbobrick, see my garage

But you'll want to dial back the boost when it snows. Sudden oversteer is only fun if the oncoming lane is clear