I need a dose of reality on engine rebuilding

So my turbo subaru (EJ255) made a bad noise and blew a chunk of a piston out the exhaust.  damage was actually minimal, one cylinder needs to be rebored.   The  heads are fine, no bent valves but with over 100K on them they should be opened up and inspected at least.  So far I have bought a low mileage block and a new set of pistons.  Also have a new timing belt kit.  What I need now is a shop to rebuild the block, clean up the heads and reassemble the whole mess.  And here is the problem.  Apparently I am supposed to drop off all the bits with my bank account number and go away.  When I ask for numbers I get crickets from most of the independent subaru shops.

shop A -we don't do rebuilds anymore

shop B - we only work on single cam suby motors

shop C - we  want $750 to take it apart and measure everything and then we will give you a number

shop D - when I asked for a ballpark price they never got back to me.

I need to know if this is typical or what I did/said wrong.  I would think 1500 to 2000 is a reasonable number to deliver a long block but cannot even get a commitment on dollars.    Are my expectations/questions out of line?

It is far cheaper to buy a shortblock and new heads than to rebuild an existing engine.  IIRC it is like $1900 for a shortblock, $800 each for heads.

$750 for clean/measure is not out of line.

Most shops have more work than they can currently handle. There are fewer and fewer machine shops around, coupled with iffy parts availability currently.  No shop worth their salt is going to quote you a "ballpark" for either cost or time in today's market without opening up the motor first. 

If I were in your shoes, I'd either be scouring junkyards or enrolling in an engine rebuilding class at the local community college. 

Looking just at subaru specific shops might be your problem. I wasn't involved in the process but on our EJ205 rebuild we ended up with a local shop that's not subaru specific but has (or at least claimed to) a decent amount of subaru engine experience. I believe they were able to give at least an estimate on pricing for a general cleaning/check and a crank cleanup (spun rod bearing from being run with 1.5 quarts of oil for a while). That said, as pete referenced short blocks are still available and are fairly cheap. We got a quote from a dealer but they couldn't confirm actual availability and we didn't want to get stuck waiting a year for stuff to show up. Also I think either they didn't have heads any more or the price was prohibitive or something else such that it didn't make sense to buy new heads. But if our engine needed much more work we probably would have just gone the new shortblock route. All in, we're probably going to end up saving basically just the cost of the head cleanup, and still have to do all the actual assembly work ourselves.

I also had a tough time finding someone to do my EJ255 a few years ago. It seems many machine shops don't do Subie engines, and those that do are tied to a Subaru tuning shop. As it was explained to me, I the tuners provide tooling and training to the machine shops but require that the work runs through them. I had to drop my block off at the tuner and use them as an intermediary between me and the machine shop. The heads weren't much easier. I found one that would do the valve guides and machine work, but wouldn't do the reassembly. Setting the valve clearance was too time consuming of a process. 

Option C sounds reasonable to me. They don't want to quote you until they can determine the extent of the damage. So they gave you a firm quote on disassembly and inspection.

Did you check the turbo for damage too? Seems like a chunk of piston flying through it could do some less than pleasant things.

I'm not sure about the Subaru world, but I had a "street performance" long block Triumph 1500 built for my Spitfire by a reputable engine builder in Ohio (Hart's Machine) a few years ago.  The price was about $3200.  My WAG is that price would be a bit more today.  There was a minimum inspection charge I had to pay up front if the core I gave them proved to be too badly worn, but that amount was applied to the final bill since it was a good core. 

Twin cam Subaru engines require a certain amount of specialized knowledge and tooling.  Don't give it to a guy that "thinks he can do it" because you will hate yourself.

At 100k, the heads probably need valves or seats or both, because the lash tightens up as they age, or at least it sure can.  It's pretty much an engine out job, because shims with cylinder heads aimed at the frame rails.

I fear there is no cheap and easy way to do it, unless you arevalready familiar with rebuilding and want to invest in some tools.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

It is far cheaper to buy a shortblock and new heads than to rebuild an existing engine.  IIRC it is like $1900 for a shortblock, $800 each for heads.

Short blocks are 2500 now. 

$750 for clean/measure is not out of line.

Streetwiseguy said:

Twin cam Subaru engines require a certain amount of specialized knowledge and tooling.  Don't give it to a guy that "thinks he can do it" because you will hate yourself.

At 100k, the heads probably need valves or seats or both, because the lash tightens up as they age, or at least it sure can.  It's pretty much an engine out job, because shims with cylinder heads aimed at the frame rails.

I fear there is no cheap and easy way to do it, unless you arevalready familiar with rebuilding and want to invest in some tools.

The engine is out, I am delivering the parts to them.  I do not want to do this motor as my first suby rebuild, there are too many little things I could do wrong to ruin the engine.  

What is frustrating is no one wants to give me an estimate, instead they just ignore me.  There is one shop that provided a real labor by task sheet, they will probably get the work.  But the attitude seems to say we don't need your work if you ask how much.  Do people just bring their cars into a shop and pay whatever?  Years ago a local shop owner told me he can just make up a number to charge and people pay it.  I was shocked by that statement but maybe it is reality and my expectations are unreasonable.  Do you ask for an estimate or just pay whatever?

porschenut said:

The engine is out, I am delivering the parts to them.  I do not want to do this motor as my first suby rebuild, there are too many little things I could do wrong to ruin the engine.  

What is it that makes a Subaru engine that much harder to rebuild than, say, a Miata?  I'm curious, I've never stared at the inside of a Subaru, but I found the Miata engine remarkably easy to do with zero previous experience and just what I could read on the internet and getting advice from friends.

Maybe tear the engine down (and clean it!) yourself before delivering parts so there's less they have to deal with?

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

You will not be able to get an engine clean enough by hand to satisfy a machine shop, having worked in one.  Think bare clean metal you could eat off of.  Any leftover oilyness or other gunk will collect shavings to be released at a later date.

The thing that sucks about Subarus besides the fiddlyness of assembling them is that the bottom ends are a pain to work with as far as flycutting the bottoms of the cases so you can line hone the mains.  Fixturing everything is also a pain, boring them is a pain because of the interrupted cut involved with the wristpin access hole, and if it happens to leak or knock or have any other issues it is now YOUR FAULT because you were the last one to touch the baby bird.

My apologies....seriously not wanting to hijack.......why was I thinking subie motors were stout.....and they're really not?

759NRNG said:

My apologies....seriously not wanting to hijack.......why was I thinking subie motors were stout.....and they're really not?

EJ20s are stout.  EJ22s are stout.  EJ25s appear to be a bridge too far, at least when boosted.

Honestly, if this is a car you have time to mess with, you will be better off doing it yourself.  You will care more about the final results and pay more attention to all the details.  

From your comment on shop C: how far disassembled is the engine? If you can separate all the parts that will come apart without machine tools, instead of bringing a short block, the cost will come down a lot and you'll have a quicker turnaround.

Also - bring all the parts you think have any chance you might want cleaned; it's cheaper to get them all in one go. But they will be glad if you first remove caked on gunk.

759NRNG said:

My apologies....seriously not wanting to hijack.......why was I thinking subie motors were stout.....and they're really not?

They're stout enough if you leave them close to stock and take good care of them. But most owners fail at one or both of those things.

I'm with Pete. Short block from the factory is the way to go.

Thanks for all the input.  Apparently machine shops/engine rebuilders can have this attitude because they are so busy.  And if I find one that isn't busy maybe they aren't very good.  For now I will keep searching, but yes option C does seem to make sense.  I am not entertaining building it myself because there are too many little nuances that experience teaches you on these and my tool selection is not capable of this work.  I don't have the right micrometers and bore gages, my torque wrench is from the 70s and I don't have any way of holding an engine during assembly.  

Apparently there are enough WRX owners wanting 500 hp and having unlimited budgets.  Maybe I should do a reverse swap and put a 914 engine in my subaru.  Those motors I can build!

 Maybe I should do a reverse swap and put a 914 engine in my subaru.  Those motors I can build!

There's a build thread going about a TDI Impreza....

Check out Hagerty channel on YouTube. They are stripping a WRX bug eye and rebuilding it. Full engine tear down. The rebuilder's disdain for the weird Subaru engine in entertaining