TeamEvil wrote:
Your thread really caught my eye as I'm in the middle if putting a SBF in the MGA and never considered an oil cooler. The Mustang that it came out of didn't have a cooler and ran well and cool and pretty much without any problems so I thought that I'd be OK—now, not so much.
Is it usual for the SBF to run hot, or is it the smaller engine compartment, lack or incoming air, or something to do with any mods that you did to the car?
Really curious about this now . . .
Good question. You might want to start a new thread to draw more attention to the topic.
I don't know of many people that run a 302 on a sports car circuit track, so there's not a ton of info out there for me to access. The E36/302 swap is common, but again as a street or autocross car.
From the few out there reporting track experience, I hear most (but not all) say they run hot when they're run hard. I don't have any problems at streetable RPMs, running 2-3K. On track, 3K is low-low-low and 4-6K is the norm. High RPMs gets the oil hot fast. Also note I'm running with a cam, and advanced timing.
I'm having issues with ignition/missing at high RPMs too, and that's the next thing I need to track down. Next time I'm at open practice, I will put a wireless thermo in the engine bay and see what my ambient temps are running.
I also had trouble getting my transmission and differential angles lined up right for the one-piece Ford driveshaft. Looks like my early drafts stressed the trans output well enough to do a little damage to the rear bushing, because it's leaking fluid at high RPMs. I have the bushing press on order.
FWIW, I bought this motor on the hoof, like you did, and drove it a while before the swap, and it was a good-running motor on the street.
In reply to rslifkin:
The problem on the ST is that the oil/water cooler is woefully inadequate for the amount of heat that the turbo puts in to the oil. I saw 275-280 on a track once before I decided I should probably back off a bit.
In reply to mck1117:
That just means the cooler is too small or doesn't get enough coolant flow through it.
Okay, parts are ordered for a sandwich plate adapter and 19-row Derale plate cooler. The hoses are 1/2" with -10AN connectors. I think it will cover about 20% of my radiator. Now I just need to say home from the track long enough on a weekend to actually install it.
I would have paid up for a Setrab cooler because they give pressure drop and BTU specs. But their fittings are -16AN, which is a PITA size and adds a bunch of useless cost for adapters. The Derale can be had "bare" in -10AN female for $115, which is almost half the price of the Setrab.
The ports on the plate adapter are only 3/8" NPT. I would rather have 1/2" but those cost $85. Also, I may need to move up to a remote filter if the current proximity of my filter and header collector continues to put too much heat into the oil even with a cooler. Or if I later decide I want a thermostat. So I didn't want to invest $85 into a plate cooler.
No reason you can't use a t-stat with the sandwich adapter. I'd seriously consider swapping for the 1/2" NPT ports. IIRC, a -10AN to 1/2" NPT is the same size all the way through the fitting. A 3/8" NPT will restrict flow a bit. Fine for a trans cooler, but IMO, too small for engine oil.
Yeah you're probably right. I don't know why I always insist on beating my head on every new rock just to be 100% sure it's hard.
There's a 50-50 chance I can't use ANY kind of plate adapter anyway, because the filter is near the header. It's asking a lot of a guy like me to buy an $80 adapter with that issue lurking around still.
The rest of the system is -10AN with 1/2" hose, so if the 3/8" is too restrictive, I'll just eat the $30 and get the 1/2" plate, or the 1/2" spin-on remote filter ports.
I'll try to remember to report back how it goes.
Sigh. The budget $30 adapter with the 3/8" ports isn't in stock anywhere that won't charge me an arm and a leg for shipping. And I screwed up and got male-male adapters for it, instead of male/female. So, I'm paying $65 for a plate adapter with -10AN female ports that match the hose ends I bought. Why is another 1/4" in port size twice the price? Oh well.
JBasham wrote:
Why is another 1/4" in port size twice the price?
This is what happens when the manufacturers know that the people who need it actually need it and will buy it no matter what.
So, I installed the Derale 19 row plate cooler under the left headlight, instead of overlapping the radiator. Using the Moroso sandwich adapter. The hardware seems good quality to me and there were no problems getting it installed leak-free the first time.
The ports on the cooler and on the plate adapter are all -10, as are the fittings and the hoses (5/8", Summit house brand Twist Tite). One of the fittings is a 90-degree and the rest are straight. The 90-degree fitting pipe is the same diameter as the drilling of the -10 fittings so I don't think it's constrictive. For now at least, I'm leaving out the thermostat.
Works fine, no loss in oil pressure per my Accutech gauge. I did two track days this week on Summit Main and the oil temps were around 240 degrees, even after an hour of liberal WOT. Much better than the 270 I was seeing before. Cruising to the track on the highway, the temps are a tad low, like 160 degrees during cooler nighttime hours. I just run it in 4th at 3.5k for a few miles, and it gets up around 180 and stays there after I go back up to 5th.
You might look at making a simple, remove-able block-off plate to put in front of the cooler when you are just driving on the street or tracking it on a cool day. That way you can keep the oil above 200 deg. where it should be.
My VW Scriocco race car came with a oil-to-water cooler that I removed and replaced with an oil-to-air cooler. Coolant never gets above 190 and oil is in the 230-240 range.
Glad Derale was able to help you solve your problem! They are great people, who make quality products. They are also building a wicked Cyclone to run track days. Yep--- they fit in just fine here!
Derale Cyclone
JBasham wrote:
TeamEvil wrote:
Your thread really caught my eye as I'm in the middle if putting a SBF in the MGA and never considered an oil cooler. The Mustang that it came out of didn't have a cooler and ran well and cool and pretty much without any problems so I thought that I'd be OK—now, not so much.
Is it usual for the SBF to run hot, or is it the smaller engine compartment, lack or incoming air, or something to do with any mods that you did to the car?
Really curious about this now . . .
Good question. You might want to start a new thread to draw more attention to the topic.
I don't know of many people that run a 302 on a sports car circuit track, so there's not a ton of info out there for me to access. The E36/302 swap is common, but again as a street or autocross car.
From the few out there reporting track experience, I hear most (but not all) say they run hot when they're run hard. I don't have any problems at streetable RPMs, running 2-3K. On track, 3K is low-low-low and 4-6K is the norm. High RPMs gets the oil hot fast. Also note I'm running with a cam, and advanced timing.
I'm having issues with ignition/missing at high RPMs too, and that's the next thing I need to track down. Next time I'm at open practice, I will put a wireless thermo in the engine bay and see what my ambient temps are running.
I also had trouble getting my transmission and differential angles lined up right for the one-piece Ford driveshaft. Looks like my early drafts stressed the trans output well enough to do a little damage to the rear bushing, because it's leaking fluid at high RPMs. I have the bushing press on order.
FWIW, I bought this motor on the hoof, like you did, and drove it a while before the swap, and it was a good-running motor on the street.
Lots of timing, running hot, maybe running lean?
Do you have an afr gauge?
Well, nevermind. Didn't read the last couple of posts....
Glad you got it sorted!
In reply to wvumtnbkr: Thanks for offering. Any of the 3 you mentioned are still possible issues since the motor was set up for the street and had a different chassis/cooling system. I'm in the process of working all that out. For example, Monday I figured out I had the TPS wired in backwards. So the ECU was getting 5 volts for idle and 1 volt for WOT. Fortunately the EEC-IV uses TPS data mostly for auto trans tweaks rather than fuel or timing, so I don't think it was critical. The car would do 125 mph without pinging, so it couldn't have been that important.
After a few more really hot days at the track I wound up going back and putting a Spal 5" pusher fan in front of the Derale cooler. The fog light wiring was just dangling there so I used it to power the fan. It's heavy enough for the fan current, and the switch is already on the dash, so . . . .
The Oracles of the Internet are saying oil temps of 220-230 are normal for this motor under moderate use. I'm keeping it to about 250 degrees with this set-up, running it wide open for about half of every lap, so I'm calling it a fix. I might get ambitious in the future and try to find a location where it gets more air flow, but I have other things to do first.
If you are running an E36, I would consider cutting a couple of slots into the nose panel directly under the headlight the cooler is beneath. You do not need a lot of airflow, just enough to keep air moving over it. I would also consider a couple of holes through the rubbing strip and bumper, they would be almost invisible
Good thought, thanks. It no longer has the fog lights, so it's getting direct air flow from that spot, as well as the port from the now-removed brake cooling "duct."
My bigger flow restriction is on the back side, because it stands about 1" away from the tire liner. I enlarged the hole from the brake "duct."
And the cooler is boxed in steel door/grill mesh to protect it from pebbles.
If you can put the fan behind the cooler and have it pull the air through instead, that should improve cooling a bit, especially at higher speeds.
I am totally going to borrow the idea of running my engine cooling fans off of the fog light wiring. My fog holes are now my brake cooling ducts so why not?
Hmmm, I'd be surprised if the wiring can stand up to the current. The oil cooling fan is a tiny little thing that doesn't draw much. For my radiator fan, I had to run a dedicated breaker and relay. Even the stock fan circuit on the E36 wasn't wired for the amps of the Volvo fan, probably because the stock E36 electric fan is an A/C condenser boost unit, not the engine coolant fan.
