I need some auto-x advice.

OK first I guess I need to tell you about my goals. I'm not concerned about having a nationally competitive car, I would just like to be somewhat competitive locally.

The car is an E21 BMW. It would be in H-stock if it was stock. All I have done so far is gutted the interior, rear swaybar, a couple coils out of the stock springs and a K&N filter. I run the car in STM here are the results from today #21 STM. Not Good but I blame it mostly on the cheap all seasons that are on it.

I have a line on another set of the stock wheels for cheap. The problem is the only tires available are under the required 140 tread-ware rating for STM. So if I go with say a Hoosier R6 I'm guessing I would have to go to SM? I would like to build the car towards a class. I've always just kinda showed up and ran but now I think I'd like to try and develop the car if that makes sense. I've read some conflicting things about if the car could go into ESP or FSP. I don't know enough about it and trying to read the rulebook just adds to the confusion.

Anyway would it make sense to throw sticky tires on it as it sits knowing it needs springs, shocks and bushings to take advantage of the good tires or should I do the suspension stuff first? I mean the thing rolls around and scrapes the door handles as it is even on crappy all seasons. Money is not available for everything at once.

How do I need to start building this car?

FYI, R6 are road race compound. A6 is autocross compound. Not sure what size you're looking for but there should new Direzza II's in your size. Can stay ST that way. Front bar? Work on the connecting link between the throttle and the steering wheel?

1. What is stm? Street tire modified? Then buy some 14 or 15" wheels and get on the good cheap tires. Rivals, zII,etc

Also put the interior back into the car unless you want to get yourself into a much higher class. Interior removal is not legal until prepared classes.

GRM answer : Cheapest way to make it competitive is to sell it and buy any Miata.

For local somewhat competitive with your current car I would be looking at either the st classes or sp classes. Both allow suspension mods but leave the interior stock and engine mods are mostly basic bolt ons as well as limiting the other cars you compete against.

In reply to wlkelley3:

The car is the problem not the driver. I'm not new to this just never really prepped a car for a class.

205/60/13 tire size. on tire rack I have a choice of R6, RA1 or R888

nicksta43 wrote: OK first I guess I need to tell you about my goals. I'm not concerned about having a nationally competitive car, I would just like to be somewhat competitive locally. The car is an E21 BMW. It would be in H-stock if it was stock. All I have done so far is gutted the interior, rear swaybar, a couple coils out of the stock springs and a K&N filter. I run the car in STM here are the results from today #21 STM. Not Good but I blame it mostly on the cheap all seasons that are on it. I have a line on another set of the stock wheels for cheap. The problem is the only tires available are under the required 140 tread-ware rating for STM. So if I go with say a Hoosier R6 I'm guessing I would have to go to SM? I would like to build the car towards a class. I've always just kinda showed up and ran but now I think I'd like to try and develop the car if that makes sense. I've read some conflicting things about if the car could go into ESP or FSP. I don't know enough about it and trying to read the rulebook just adds to the confusion. Anyway would it make sense to throw sticky tires on it as it sits knowing it needs springs, shocks and bushings to take advantage of the good tires or should I do the suspension stuff first? I mean the thing rolls around and scrapes the door handles as it is even on crappy all seasons. Money is not available for everything at once. How do I need to start building this car?

SM doesn't allow a gutted interior ... and forget the R6, go straight to the A6 ... of for less money the Hankook Z214 C71 compound ( cost less than the Hoosier, last LOTS longer, doesn't have all the grip of the purple crack)

sounds like you'd end up in XP ... and eventually you'd need all those things for the suspension ... would probably be worth it to do the suspension as you have money ... instead of killing the expensive tires with a camber challenged car

nicksta43 wrote: In reply to wlkelley3: The car is the problem not the driver. I'm not new to this just never really prepped a car for a class. 205/60/13 tire size. on tire rack I have a choice of R6, RA1 or R888

no reason not to go to 15's ... then you have a huge selection of "street" tires

moxnix wrote: Also put the interior back into the car unless you want to get yourself into a much higher class. Interior removal is not legal until prepared classes. GRM answer : Cheapest way to make it competitive is to sell it and buy any Miata. For local somewhat competitive with your current car I would be looking at either the st classes or sp classes. Both allow suspension mods but leave the interior stock and engine mods are mostly basic bolt ons as well as limiting the other cars you compete against.

Will not be putting the interior back in until all the bodywork and paint is done. STM is a catchall class anything goes as long as it's above 140. Problem is I can't afford 15's and good tires and the only 13's available are under 140. What prepared class could I build it for? I might not want an interior in it anyway. Thinking of going with lexan for everything except the windshield anyway.

wbjones wrote:

nicksta43 wrote: In reply to wlkelley3: The car is the problem not the driver. I'm not new to this just never really prepped a car for a class. 205/60/13 tire size. on tire rack I have a choice of R6, RA1 or R888

no reason not to go to 15's ... then you have a huge selection of "street" tires

Money is a pretty big reason.

Yeah, running a Hoosier is definitely going to take you out of the street tire class. Just FYI, the R6 is a "road racing" tire and the the A6 is the auto cross tire. What size wheels do you have? If you run the OE 13", there really isn't anything sticky with a tread wear rating above 140 unless there is some no name tire that I'm not aware of. You may want to move up a wheel size (or two if necessary). If you don't wan't to go with a new wheel that changes the look, you could go with a larger "period correct wheel".

While it depends on how sticky the tires are, I would imagine that the sticky rubber is going to make you faster than an upgraded suspension but it prorably won't be as enjoyable. If the car alread rolls around as it is , stickier rubber is only going to exaggerate that problem.

Just to satisfy my curiosity, did taking the coils out of the spring have any major affects on the handling?

Are driving this car on the street (frequently) as well?

Cut springs are usually pretty bad. I would try to find some decent aftermarket springs and a good set of shocks first. Are koni/ground controls an option for your car? Get the car sorted out on the tires you have now, then upgrade wheels/tires.

Mmadness wrote: Yeah, running a Hoosier is definitely going to take you out of the street tire class. Just FYI, the R6 is a "road racing" tire and the the A6 is the auto cross tire. What size wheels do you have? If you run the OE 13", there really isn't anything sticky with a tread wear rating above 140 unless there is some no name tire that I'm not aware of. You may want to move up a wheel size (or two if necessary). If you don't wan't to go with a new wheel that changes the look, you could go with a larger "period correct wheel". While it depends on how sticky the tires are, I would imagine that the sticky rubber is going to make you faster than an upgraded suspension but it prorably won't be as enjoyable. If the car alread rolls around as it is , stickier rubber is only going to exaggerate that problem. Just to satisfy my curiosity, did taking the coils out of the spring have any major affects on the handling? Are driving this car on the street (frequently) as well?

I know the A6 is the autocross tire, they do not come in a 205/60/13 but the R6 does.

Cutting the coils didn't have a huge effect on handling. A little bit firmer but no real bad side effects.

It's my daily driver for now, I don't really care about ruining street manners though. On the list of importance street manners are at the very bottom.

Spoolpigeon wrote: Cut springs are usually pretty bad. I would try to find some decent aftermarket springs and a good set of shocks first. Are koni/ground controls an option for your car? Get the car sorted out on the tires you have now, then upgrade wheels/tires.

I am eventually going to go ground control. I haven't really looked into it because I know all the bushings are shot on the car as well. If I had the money to do it all at once this wouldn't even be an issue. The only problem with the stock cut coils is they are still pathetically weak.

Just so you know the current tires are Kuhmo Solus kr21 standard touring all seasons.

nicksta43 wrote: Money is a pretty big reason.

In this case I'm going to be blunt and totally honest with you, because I have been in your exact position - and to a certain extent, still am.

If you can't afford an upgrade to 15" wheels and tires, it doesn't sound like you really have the budget to do what you want to do with your car. Yes, obviously as every Challenge team knows, it can be done cheaply... But you're talking about taking an underprepared, and possibly uncompetitive car anyway, and trying to make it respectable in sanctioned competition. That's going to take time and money to develop.

Having been there myself, here are your choices.

1.) Continue to build and develop your car as your budget allows, with the patience and understanding it will take years to complete and sort.

2.) Find someone you can partner with and pool your racing budgets. Obviously, there will be many details to work out, but I've known people who have done well with this.

3.) Sell your car and/or buy something more competitive.

Yea, gutted interior = prepared class.......not XP until you switch to a non-bmw engine though.

Otherwise, I would put the money towards the bodywork now. Then get the interior back in, followed with prepping for one of the st classes(idk if you'd go to a lettered class or stx/stu though) At this point, jump ship to 15's and run whatever tires. You'll enjoy the lower sidewall height.

Do what we did with our LeMons Civic: get some 14" VW GTi 'snowflakes', later BMW 'bottlecaps' or even some early Miata 14" steelies or daisies and put some 14" Falken Azenis or Star Specs on them. That will give you a 200TW tire that grips much better than you'd think for a reasonable price (damn sure cheaper than the R6's) which will put you in a class where you'll be more competitive. And definitely put the interior back in.

Remember that shocks are free in Stock class but not springs. It's possible to use an adjustable damping shock, crank in a E36 M3load of damping and it's like having stiffer springs. If you can get Tokico Illuminas it's a decent shock for a reasonable price. So, Illuminas and stock springs. Of course make sure the te rods etc are in good shape, if they are sloppy straighten that out.

Then, once you have a decent 'baseline', evaluate your handling, what's it do that you don't want it to do? Tune the suspension from there.

nicksta43 wrote: Will not be putting the interior back in until all the bodywork and paint is done. STM is a catchall class anything goes as long as it's above 140. Problem is I can't afford 15's and good tires and the only 13's available are under 140. What prepared class could I build it for? I might not want an interior in it anyway. Thinking of going with lexan for everything except the windshield anyway.

E-prepared is where is 4 cyl e21 is classed.

Once you've start doing big weight savings like interior and replacement windows you will end up there. I don't think it is a class for the low of budget unless you can fabricate your own stuff for the car.

Since STM is a local class in your region it is not something I would recommend building a car for and any class that is open like that can be a very expensive class if people actually start building cars for it.

The biggest quickest speed up is going to be tires but they will also last the least amount of time so if I could I would start with getting some decent suspension under the car first.

OK for about the same price I can get option A. Sticky tires. Or B. Eibach springs and Bilstein sports.

Option B if it were my car

Just re read the book on E prepared and that sounds like where I want the car to end up.

I'm pretty sure federal 595 come in 205 60 13. They aren't super easy to find, but they should be better than what you have. I don't mean to be a Dick, but it sounds like you just want to build the car your way and not worry about a class. Virtually any reasonably prepped car in ep is going to be way faster. There is the option to spend huge money in that class. Are there any ep cars that run at your local events? If you truly arr trying to be competitive I would stay in your catch all class and buy some 15" rims and street tires. It's cheaper to buy the right thing once, than to buy something crappy and then the right thing to replace it. It took me a long time of buying crappy stuff before I realised this.

mw wrote: I don't mean to be a Dick, but it sounds like you just want to build the car your way and not worry about a class. Virtually any reasonably prepped car in ep is going to be way faster. Are there any ep cars that run at your local events?

Your more right than wrong about the class thing. However when I see the car finished in my head it would be closer to an EP build than anything else. So at what point would it go from building towards an EP car to actually being one. I don't think it has to built to the letter of the rules to be one.

Lack of power? Too much weight? All of the above? And won't that be addressed the more the car is prepped?

Looks like the last time an EP car ran locally was back in 2007.

Well, the guy in HS was nearly 10 seconds faster than you in an Altima. Of course that Altima was running some pretty nice times looking at the bigger picture, but then maybe the Altima had race tires. Regardless, throwing sticky tires on the car will make you faster, but doing so will also cover up other areas needing attention, including the nut behind the wheel.

I think that starting with a stock setup would be best, but since stock springs are probably not an option, work with what you have.I don't think that slapping some R compounds will do much help in the long run. Crappy all-seasons? I know that feeling. I ran last season on my 640 tread wear whitewalls. My Caprice is no athlete, but those tires still worked, especially when I felt what the car was doing and corrected my habits. I don't say this pretending that I am some legendary racer and and I don't say this to discourage you. Just keep at it and don't give up.

I was certainly rusty today. First run in over a year. I uncharacteristically DNF'd three times and I even killed more cones today than in the previous ten or so years I've been autoxing. Somehow I think ya'll fail to realize just how terrible this thing handles. I wish I had a video camera.

This was what 58s run on our course looked like today.