Appleseed wrote: Start saving for the supercharger it deserves.
And then start saving for repeated transmission rebuilds, replacement rear-ends, driveshafts, etc.
The drivetrain on this car is barely adequate for the stock power output.
I knew a guy with the fastest street legal Marauder in the country. It ran low 12's (unreliably) and at that point he had nearly $50k into it (bought the car used).
drdisque wrote:Appleseed wrote: Start saving for the supercharger it deserves.And then start saving for repeated transmission rebuilds, replacement rear-ends, driveshafts, etc. The drivetrain on this car is barely adequate for the stock power output. I knew a guy with the fastest street legal Marauder in the country. It ran low 12's (unreliably) and at that point he had nearly $50k into it (bought the car used).
someone's been tellin ya stories. Mine has 150k with multiple drag passes and the only driveline work has been dropping in 4.10 gears. And FWIW it's tuned to 350 which aint much but its enough.
I spent most of my life with GM stuff and I dont hate it but for autos the Ford boxes are a bit more stout and I cant recall anyone ever saying "its got a Ford rear...oh hell no, E36 M3can that thing"
Maybe things start going downhill fast over 450 hp. I think that was actually the case for him. It was reasonably reliable as a low 14 second car, but when he wanted more, that's when he couldn't keep it together.
drdisque wrote: Maybe things start going downhill fast over 450 hp. I think that was actually the case for him. It was reasonably reliable as a low 14 second car, but when he wanted more, that's when he couldn't keep it together.
Without timeslips all is suspect :)
The PO on my car sold it to me because he only had room for one car in the garage and he kept the "fast" car. 12 second timeslips on that one, 14s on mine. He put them head to head and let them fight it out :) And he has my number when he's ready to sell the "fast" car (Buick GNX)...yeah 72 year old dude and he had a 14 second Marauder and a 12 second GNX, with timeslips to back it up...I wanna be him if I grow up :)
So, the tow rating is a mystery.
Poking around some forums, it seems older Panthers were rated at 5000 lbs for regular models and at least 6000 lbs for the P71 (even more with load-leveling hitch).
Yet, the Marauder is rated at just 1500 lbs despite having a stronger drivetrain. Makes no sense.
Consensus on the RV forums is that a P71 or Marauder should be able to tow 5000 lbs on the highway with minor modifications and the proper Class III hitch
It's got to be the self leveling, airbag suspension on the rear that kills the tow rating. Nothing else makes sense.
Appleseed wrote: It's got to be the self leveling, airbag suspension on the rear that kills the tow rating. Nothing else makes sense.
Lawyers, lawyers kill products and products capabilities. That makes sense.
In Europe a BMW 5 series is rated to pull a horse trailer. In the US, a small boat is a stretch. Why? Lawyers. In Europe people can not tow faster than 50 mph in most countries. In the US, if the vehicle can pull the Space Shuttle at 100 mph on I-40, with all the weight biased on the tongue, or tail of the trailer you pick, and you crash the Manufacturer is liable for millions of dollars in legal fees even if they win.
So lawyers is the reason.
Appleseed wrote: It's got to be the self leveling, airbag suspension on the rear that kills the tow rating. Nothing else makes sense.
It wasn't just the Marauder: all Panthers got their tow ratings dropped to almost a quarter of what they used to be.
Sounds like either a liability thing, or Ford trying to convince customers that everyone in America needs to drive an SUV.
In 1995 a Crown Vic was rated to tow 5000 lbs
In 1996, before there was a mid year refresh and they just changed a digit in the VIN, 2000 lbs.
Lawyers.
Flight Service wrote: Lawyers.
yep. That's all ya need to know. On RV forums and the like when they want to find tow ratings they look up the european spec.
The tow rating is also only really a guideline and doesn't mean "anything up to this weight is fine, anything more is a no-go". I can probably find a 4k lb traiiler that'll tow fine behind a panther if set up right (including trailer brakes), but at the same time, I can probably find a 1500 lb trailer that'll tow much, much worse.
JThw8 wrote:drdisque wrote:someone's been tellin ya stories. Mine has 150k with multiple drag passes and the only driveline work has been dropping in 4.10 gears. And FWIW it's tuned to 350 which aint much but its enough. I spent most of my life with GM stuff and I dont hate it but for autos the Ford boxes are a bit more stout and I cant recall anyone ever saying "its got a Ford rear...oh hell no, E36 M3can that thing"Appleseed wrote: Start saving for the supercharger it deserves.And then start saving for repeated transmission rebuilds, replacement rear-ends, driveshafts, etc. The drivetrain on this car is barely adequate for the stock power output. I knew a guy with the fastest street legal Marauder in the country. It ran low 12's (unreliably) and at that point he had nearly $50k into it (bought the car used).
My 4r70w had never been serviced before (still had the plastic plug) when I reomved the pan at 95k miles. Did a quick J-mod, filter & fluid. Eighteen million burnouts, several out of state trips towing other cars, and an additional 50k miles behind the 5.4 swap. Still shifting good.
Brett_Murphy wrote: Why not a Lexus? The GS430 has V8 goodness and comfortable cruising.
You know, I was reading this thread fairly happily until i actually opened up one of the CL ads and looked at a Marauder again. It's an early 00s Ford interior in black. Mehhhhhh. I much prefer my Lexus interior (and acceleration). I also agree with m4ff3w's Jag comment as well.
I think Marauders are interesting but i wouldn't want to pay much of a premium over a 'nice' regular panther. And honestly, i'd rather have a supercharged Harley F150 from the same period than a Marauder. Only problem is i think those have an even goofier price difference vs the 'normal' versions.
rslifkin wrote: The tow rating is also only really a guideline and doesn't mean "anything up to this weight is fine, anything more is a no-go". I can probably find a 4k lb traiiler that'll tow fine behind a panther if set up right (including trailer brakes), but at the same time, I can probably find a 1500 lb trailer that'll tow much, much worse.
ehhhh, I wouldn't go that far. The lawyers have successfully got to a point of screwing people over in some states. Take Pennsylvania for instance. If you are pulling a trailer you have to stop at the little two lane road weigh stations and they check your rating. Most don't go after cars and pickups unless they see stupidity, but legally they can. Safety wise there is always the old rule of thumb that you can tow the same amount the vehicle weighs with 10% on the tongue safely. Properly equipped rigs can obviously do more (F350s do not weigh 17000lbs) but this is a good rule of thumb provided your hitch can handle the load.
berkeleying lawyers, on a side note, I am thinking about trying to go to law school next year. 
JThw8 wrote:drdisque wrote: Maybe things start going downhill fast over 450 hp. I think that was actually the case for him. It was reasonably reliable as a low 14 second car, but when he wanted more, that's when he couldn't keep it together.Without timeslips all is suspect :) The PO on my car sold it to me because he only had room for one car in the garage and he kept the "fast" car. 12 second timeslips on that one, 14s on mine. He put them head to head and let them fight it out :) And he has my number when he's ready to sell the "fast" car (Buick GNX)...yeah 72 year old dude and he had a 14 second Marauder and a 12 second GNX, with timeslips to back it up...I wanna be him if I grow up :)
Personally I saw it run low 13's on a bad tune.
I've seen his 12 second timeslips.
JThw8 wrote:drdisque wrote:someone's been tellin ya stories. Mine has 150k with multiple drag passes and the only driveline work has been dropping in 4.10 gears. And FWIW it's tuned to 350 which aint much but its enough. I spent most of my life with GM stuff and I dont hate it but for autos the Ford boxes are a bit more stout and I cant recall anyone ever saying "its got a Ford rear...oh hell no, E36 M3can that thing"Appleseed wrote: Start saving for the supercharger it deserves.And then start saving for repeated transmission rebuilds, replacement rear-ends, driveshafts, etc. The drivetrain on this car is barely adequate for the stock power output. I knew a guy with the fastest street legal Marauder in the country. It ran low 12's (unreliably) and at that point he had nearly $50k into it (bought the car used).
Well the 8.8 isn't exactly known for strength and...
No, I can't say that with a straight face. The 8.8 is a tough SOB.
The AOD and derivatives aren't stellar, but everything downstream of that is plenty beefy.
It's not like people say GM 12-bolts are weak. The 8.8 is Ford's version of the 12 bolt...
(So GM copied the Windsor and made some detail changes and voila, LS. 
)
JThw8 wrote:drdisque wrote: Maybe things start going downhill fast over 450 hp. I think that was actually the case for him. It was reasonably reliable as a low 14 second car, but when he wanted more, that's when he couldn't keep it together.Without timeslips all is suspect :) The PO on my car sold it to me because he only had room for one car in the garage and he kept the "fast" car. 12 second timeslips on that one, 14s on mine. He put them head to head and let them fight it out :) And he has my number when he's ready to sell the "fast" car (Buick GNX)...yeah 72 year old dude and he had a 14 second Marauder and a 12 second GNX, with timeslips to back it up...I wanna be him if I grow up :)
If it's a GNX, and he offers to sell it for less than $100k, buy it and flip it!
Even ragged out GNs are $15k and up cars and any half decent GN is $25k easy. (And if it was running 12s, I'd see which spark plug wires fell off 
) GNXs almost never actually go up for sale... hell they never seem to ever come out of whatever hermetically sealed storage containers they are hidden away in. That would put miles on the odometer, paint might get scratched or breathed on wrong.
Knurled wrote:JThw8 wrote:If it's a GNX, and he offers to sell it for less than $100k, buy it and flip it! Even ragged out GNs are $15k and up cars and any half decent GN is $25k easy. (And if it was running 12s, I'd see which spark plug wires fell offdrdisque wrote: Maybe things start going downhill fast over 450 hp. I think that was actually the case for him. It was reasonably reliable as a low 14 second car, but when he wanted more, that's when he couldn't keep it together.Without timeslips all is suspect :) The PO on my car sold it to me because he only had room for one car in the garage and he kept the "fast" car. 12 second timeslips on that one, 14s on mine. He put them head to head and let them fight it out :) And he has my number when he's ready to sell the "fast" car (Buick GNX)...yeah 72 year old dude and he had a 14 second Marauder and a 12 second GNX, with timeslips to back it up...I wanna be him if I grow up :)
Sorry, you are correct Grand National not GNX, late night, fuzzy brain. It was still a very nice car but I'll probably have to wait for a call from his widow to get my hands on that one.
LanEvo wrote: So, the tow rating is a mystery. Poking around some forums, it seems older Panthers were rated at 5000 lbs for regular models and at least 6000 lbs for the P71 (even more with load-leveling hitch). Yet, the Marauder is rated at just 1500 lbs despite having a stronger drivetrain. Makes no sense. Consensus on the RV forums is that a P71 or Marauder should be able to tow 5000 lbs on the highway with minor modifications and the proper Class III hitch
Marauders had air suspension, which probably sucks hardcore for towing since air springs tend to have awfully low rates. Plus it might end up being hard on the air compressor, and if a line blew or the compressor failed or something and the suspension dropped to max compression... oops!
Similar to why Escape Hybrids were only rated to tow something like 1000lb. The engine and hybrid motor are plenty capable, except for two conditions: The transmission has no reverse and relies on the (small) electric motor for backing up, and there is next to no engine braking, all "engine" braking is regen, so long grades downhill can be dicey: once the battery is fully charged, the only braking you have is the actual brakes. I looked into this a lot, like a LOT a lot, because I kinda like Escape Hybrids.
I wonder if the higher power output of the Marauder has something to do with it. Like, maybe the cooling systems are only capable of acceptably cooling a 200hp engine that is being worked hard. And if you have 300hp available, one is likely to USE it, but on the street you can't use it for more than a few seconds. When towing you might do something stupid like go full throttle up a long steep grade from a stop in August at high elevation, and maybe the cooling systems aren't cut out for that much stress at 300hp.
More perverse: a V6 Escape has a lower towing capacity than a turbo Forester. Really.
There's a lot of possible reasons for the low rating. Heck, my Jeep is only rated to tow 5k lbs, when the same chassis with a smaller V8 is rated for 6500. The reason? Mine has an electric fan while the smaller engines had clutch fans and they were worried about people not paying attention to the temps, using all of the power for sustained periods and cooking it.
A buddy went from a brand new (at the time) Ecobust F150 to a well preserved mid 2000s Grand Marquis. Although it's got the regular 4.6 mill, it still does daily driving duty just fine and I'm pretty sure the fuzz hasnt ever given it a second look compared to the attention grabbing Maurader.
Knurled wrote:JThw8 wrote:If it's a GNX, and he offers to sell it for less than $100k, buy it and flip it! Even ragged out GNs are $15k and up cars and any half decent GN is $25k easy. (And if it was running 12s, I'd see which spark plug wires fell offdrdisque wrote: Maybe things start going downhill fast over 450 hp. I think that was actually the case for him. It was reasonably reliable as a low 14 second car, but when he wanted more, that's when he couldn't keep it together.Without timeslips all is suspect :) The PO on my car sold it to me because he only had room for one car in the garage and he kept the "fast" car. 12 second timeslips on that one, 14s on mine. He put them head to head and let them fight it out :) And he has my number when he's ready to sell the "fast" car (Buick GNX)...yeah 72 year old dude and he had a 14 second Marauder and a 12 second GNX, with timeslips to back it up...I wanna be him if I grow up :)
Frightening/infuriating fact: Somebody turned in a genuine GNX for Cash 4 Clunkers. Yeah, get $4500 for your 1-of-587 rocketship that was worth more than that even if it'd been barrel-rolled and lit on fire. That whole program was such a farce.
NickD wrote: Yeah, get $4500 for your 1-of-587 rocketship that was worth more than that even if it'd been barrel-rolled and lit on fire. That whole program was such a farce.
It got a billion Explorers and Grand Cherokees off the roads, so it was still a net win.
(547 GNXs. 
)
Counterpoint: It made all the $500 cheap turds suddenly worth $1,000 overnight because of scarcity. Bad program. Bad.
Appleseed wrote: Counterpoint: It made all the $500 cheap turds suddenly worth $1,000 overnight because of scarcity. Bad program. Bad.
I was going to post a Craigslist ad of a '99 Forester that had so much rust that it looked like the automotive equivalent of a zombie, like you could reach into the car through the doors and/or fendersm advertised at $1500, but the ad is gone, car presumably sold...
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