Frenchy, just stop it.
Quit fooling yourself.
Having a couple of old Jaguars in your driveway and an older MG in your garage does not qualify you to stand on a pedestal and preach. Maybe if you drove them you'd have some cred. But you drive a late model pickup.
Having old cars doesn't count when they aren't driven, and just sit there without ever being touched. Walking by them on the way to your late model daily driver doesn't qualify.
So I've been watching Goodwood and while most EVs are porky I was pleasantly surprised to see the EV Caterham 7 is supposed to be 1500lbs.
frenchyd said:AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) : ... And if you wanted to save the planet and environment you'd drive what you already have...
Exactly what I was wondering about. Can someone explain to me how maintaining a car for 25+ years is a benefit if you still buy and primarily use newer cars for your transportation? Although a 1953 MG TDI is sweet, the earth-mother-goddess of trees and things would probably rather see it melted and recycled if it is not in regular use in place of a newer vehicle.
If you do a full cost accounting of the entire activities of production and recycling, building new from scratch always consumes more resources. Most accounting methods never consider the full life cycle of anything. Once something is already built that is a sunk cost in both resources, material and labor. It's always going to be cheaper to update what you already have. If you are worried about engine emissions, it is going to be a lot less expensive and more efficient to retrofit a modern engine to an older chassis like a new ford ecoboost or a Honda earth dreams engine. Most people just want new things for convenience, certain features, or to keep up with the Jones'. Heck if people really cared about saving the planet and using resources efficiently, we'd see a lot more bicycles in use than currently. It's not about that and it never has been about that.
Nonsense. By that logic we'd still be using a horse and buggy, Well talk about pollution?!?!? Do you realize what city streets were like with horses? Manure and urine everywhere. Thick swarms of Flies everywhere.
Yes horseless carriages were an improvement. Steam, electric and a few of those smelly gas powered jobs.
Did you know that Henry Fords wife drove an electric?
If it was about saving the planet then yes horse and buggies would still be in use. You can have them without drilling for oil or strip mining. It's not about that. It's about what you want.
While I've only glanced at a few early and the last couple pages I'm pretty sure I want an EV less now then before 100+ pages ago. :)
Tom1200 said:So I've been watching Goodwood and while most EVs are porky I was pleasantly surprised to see the EV Caterham 7 is supposed to be 1500lbs.
Now that sounds fun.
There are some really interesting batteries and electric motors out there.
One 62 pound motor makes 800+ horsepower.
And sodium manganese xxxxx? Produce some really astonishing light and power dense batteries.
So what's in development now should soon be available in daily drivers.
Two that look really great are Borophene which reportedly will recharge completely in under 5 minute plus in a Tesla gives astonishing range, reportedly 267%
. And carbon carbon which will last vet 100 years.
Indy - Guy said:frenchyd said:.......EV's are changing not just every 3-4 years. But every few months. Sometimes every few weeks.
Frenchyd, have you ever worked in a manufacturing environment?
Zero chance Tesla is changing something significant every few weeks (at least hardware, maybe software) that's not how industrial manufacturing works.
Edit: this is post # 2,500 in this thread.
If Elon says it, it must be true. His factories don't have to follow the rules of the physical universe. Unfortunately that's also why a lot of the cars fall off the assembly line looking like they were built by amateurs in a tent but I digress....
In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :
The blip on it said no immediate plans for production.
The other notable thing was they said after a 20 minute track session it could recharge in 15 minutes.
I have to refuel the Datsun after each session so recharging a car wouldn't be an issue for me.
I swear the stupidity in this thread just got worse. Didn't even know it was possible.
frenchyd said:There are some really interesting batteries and electric motors out there.
One 62 pound motor makes 800+ horsepower.
And sodium manganese xxxxx? Produce some really astonishing light and power dense batteries.
So what's in development now should soon be available in daily drivers.
Two that look really great are Borophene which reportedly will recharge completely in under 5 minute plus in a Tesla gives astonishing range, reportedly 267%
. And carbon carbon which will last vet 100 years.
There are always new technologies in development. Only a small percentage of promising tech actually makes it to production and into customer hands. That process can take decades when it does happen.
And because there's always a new headline grabbing tech that's in development, there will be new stuff in the works when your mythical Model 2 is (potentially) released. If you're always ignoring the things that actually exist (New Bolt, used EVs) so you can wait for something better to maybe come along you're going to miss out a lot.
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:Indy - Guy said:frenchyd said:.......EV's are changing not just every 3-4 years. But every few months. Sometimes every few weeks.
Frenchyd, have you ever worked in a manufacturing environment?
Zero chance Tesla is changing something significant every few weeks (at least hardware, maybe software) that's not how industrial manufacturing works.
Edit: this is post # 2,500 in this thread.
If Elon says it, it must be true. His factories don't have to follow the rules of the physical universe. Unfortunately that's also why a lot of the cars fall off the assembly line looking like they were built by amateurs in a tent but I digress....
I sold the local Ford branch ( they built Rangers) forklifts and other material handling equipment . Tried to set up an automated delivery system. Got all the way through the last local management and Union approval . Payback was 3 years Detroit came back and said a 2 year payback was required for any investment of that size. *
*There are whole chapters. More on that subject if nterested.
However your comment implies that Elon Musk doesn't make and have his subordinates make changes when it improves the product.
If you talk to Tesla owners or follow the trades about Tesla you'll find that's why they are so far ahead of legacy auto companies.
Dismiss that at your own peril.
Hey, remember how everyone was supposed to have flying cars 23 years ago?
I remember...
bobzilla said:I swear the stupidity in this thread just got worse. Didn't even know it was possible.
Were you expecting stupidity to get better?
Introducing the new and improved stupidity............
racerfink said:Hey, remember how everyone was supposed to have flying cars 23 years ago?
I remember...
Flying cars? That's page 80.
In reply to frenchyd :
You're right. Teslas have gone through a lot of changes and improvements. That could be good, or it could be bad.
One way to look at it is that Tesla is constantly improving, and that they make those improvements available to existing owners with cars that are already on the road. I see that this is your perspective.
Another way to look at it is that Tesla rushes product to market before it is actually ready for prime time. That they fail to do their R&D fully, and that the cars need upgrades because they aren't quite ready to be fully marketable.
Honestly, I don't think either extreme is accurate. Both of those perspectives are true to an extent.
bobzilla said:I swear the stupidity in this thread just got worse. Didn't even know it was possible.
To quote Einstein. "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity. I'm not sure about the universe."
This post has received too many downvotes to be displayed.
SV reX said:In reply to frenchyd :
You're right. Teslas have gone through a lot of changes and improvements. That could be good, or it could be bad.
One way to look at it is that Tesla is constantly improving, and that they make those improvements available to existing owners with cars that are already on the road. I see that this is your perspective.
Another way to look at it is that Tesla rushes product to market before it is actually ready for prime time. That they fail to do their R&D fully, and that the cars need upgrades because they aren't quite ready to be fully marketable.
Honestly, I don't think either extreme is accurate. Both of those perspectives are true to an extent.
You are right.
You know who else does that ( or used to? ).
Sir William Lyons. ( Jaguar ) actually more than Tesla. If you want I'll bore you to death with every change between models. I'm particularly adapt with the XKE.
He took a little motorcycle accessory company right up to the the top sports car manufacturer.
John Egan then took a unwanted arm of BMHC to independence and in the peak of Union troubles managed to turn a losing barely afloat company's into something that made impressive profit and something Ford Motor company would vastly over pay for.
While I don't like Elon Musk's politics, his business acumen is absolutely astonishing. I wish I had invested in it when I first became aware of them.
Other Legacy companies are fumbling around making mistake after mistake trying to build EV's losing money on each one they sell. Stacking up unwanted inventory by the thousands.
Meanwhile The model 3 and the model Y are setting sales records. The second Quarter of this year Tesla is nearly at 500,000 units sold and on path to exceed a million by the end of the year.
Their sales are aided by the best charging stations on this planet. One that most legacy manufactures are signed up or signing to use. An additional income stream. ( Mercedes is the last I heard about but haven't checked since Tuesday.).
The Giga batteries are selling like popcorn. Just recently Tesla bought the German company that is putting In motion charging in highways so stopping to charge your car will be a thing of the past .
In reply to SV reX :
This is more accurate. When people by a car from a real car company they expect that they're going to get a finished, fully developed product. When it's not quite right and some new feature isn't perfect it becomes newsworthy. Tesla owners are quite happy to be guinea pigs. He's convinced them that with each failure somehow they're like an aspiring Chuck Yeager. Sure their self driving system may yeet them into a stopped fire engine or into a pack of children, but that will make the next car even smarter. They'll settle for cars that can't be repaired, have doors that don't seal, dashes to work loose, and all the other fun things that are reported endlessly about them all to be smarter than everyone else. If any other car was assembled like the average current Tesla, and had their support network they'd have been run out of business. Elon is a truly gifted carney.
For better or worse, Tesla has started Cybertruck production in Austin...
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/15/business/tesla-cybertruck-launch/index.html
Wally (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to SV reX :
This is more accurate. When people by a car from a real car company they expect that they're going to get a finished, fully developed product. When it's not quite right and some new feature isn't perfect it becomes newsworthy. Tesla owners are quite happy to be guinea pigs. He's convinced them that with each failure somehow they're like an aspiring Chuck Yeager. Sure their self driving system may yeet them into a stopped fire engine or into a pack of children, but that will make the next car even smarter. They'll settle for cars that can't be repaired, have doors that don't seal, dashes to work loose, and all the other fun things that are reported endlessly about them all to be smarter than everyone else. If any other car was assembled like the average current Tesla, and had their support network they'd have been run out of business. Elon is a truly gifted carney.
You aren't old enough to know about Sir William Lyons. He always used his customer base to develop his cars.
Doing so people became invested in them and felt a bond with Jaguar. Part of the inner club.
The Japanese had the philosophy you espouse and delivered cars as perfect as they could make them.
Doing so they lost the enthusiasts but gained the alarm clock crowd.
America pretty much choose a middle road between them. The Enthusiasts could put on Mag wheels and other personalization bits but they more or less ran right from delivery without much factory assistance.
frenchyd said:but they more or less ran right from delivery without much factory assistance.
What a dumb idea. People want something they bought to just work as it should? That's crazy talk.
Rather than having down votes, we should have a permanent tally at the bottom of a poster's comments for all the condescending comments he makes.
In reply to Steve_Jones :
Yeah, the average person doesn't need an adventure every day, we're just trying to get to work and back.
In reply to frenchyd :
So who has been more successful, jaguar (who's been sold off how many times) or the Japanese ?
This topic is locked. No further posts are being accepted.
